confusion on basebaths

[steveshane67]

first time posting here and wanted to know what the proper call/rule is

bases loaded, 1 out.

batter hits a line drive to CF, all runners are tagging up. the LCF makes a diving catch, the umpire calls out "catch", the batter doesnt hear the ump and proceeds to run full speed all the way to 2nd, and passes R1, who was tagging up on the play, as the BR passed 1st.

confused yet? this is where the question comes in. now the BR is about 15' in front of R1, both are going from 1st towards 2nd. the ump yells "the batter is out" again, again the BR claims to not hear the ump. the LCF throws the ball to 2nd, the 2B tries to tag R1, but the BR had slid into the 2B and "knocked him out of the way", thus allowing R1 to reach second base. (note, just for extra measure, when both the BR and R1 were standing on 2nd, the 2B tagged R1, who physically was the subsequent runner)

in the mean time, R3 tagged and scored on the play b4 any of the fiasco at 2nd occured.

whats the ruling on the field?

is it just 1 out for the catch?
2 outs, batter is out and the runner closest to home is out for interference (or obstruction i forget which one is on the runner), thus no runs score
2 outs batter is out and R1 is out bc BR interfered with 2B not allowing him to tag R1, and R3's run is upheld?

basically this comes down to what is the BR allowed or not allowed to do when they are retired? and what is the runner allowed or not allowed to do when they pass another runner? (just asking in case the LCF didnt make the catch)

thanks for any help

[NCASAUmp]

Okay, let's clean up the terminology a little... R1 was on 3B, R2 was on 2B, R3 was on 1B. It'll help you a lot on this forum.

Back to the OP. This is where I tell the runner he's full of sh1t. If the ball was caught, he's out. If the ball WASN'T caught, he was out anyway for passing R3. So in either case, he was out. We now have 2 outs.

Since he then hindered the defense's ability to make a play on another runner (R3), the runner closest to home (R1) is also out (ASA 8-7-P). Three outs. No runs score.

It's not up to the umpire to scream at the top of their lungs whether or not the ball was caught or whether or not someone was out. We do our best, but sometimes, the crowd gets a little loud, or runners get a little deaf (either intentionally or otherwise).

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Okay, let's clean up the terminology a little... R1 was on 3B, R2 was on 2B, R3 was on 1B. It'll help you a lot on this forum.

Oh I don't know, I followed it just fine.

I know I know...I just prefer it the other way.

The rest of your post I agree with except...if R1 scored before the interference, wouldn't the run count?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Oh I don't know, I followed it just fine.

I know I know...I just prefer it the other way.

The rest of your post I agree with except...if R1 scored before the interference, wouldn't the run count?

I forgot to put "probably R1" in parenthesis. The OP says that all of the runners held at their bases to tag up, so I didn't think that R1 would have reached HP yet, since R3 had yet to make it to 2B before B4 interfered.

[steveshane67]

[Okay, let's clean up the terminology a little... R1 was on 3B, R2 was on 2B, R3 was on 1B. It'll help you a lot on this forum.

sorry, started associating runners with bases, sort of a freudian slip

Since he then hindered the defense's ability to make a play on another runner (R3), the runner closest to home (R1) is also out (ASA 8-7-P). Three outs. No runs score.

I was the ump for the game, thats what i ruled, the team at bat was not happy, oh well

It's not up to the umpire to scream at the top of their lungs whether or not the ball was caught or whether or not someone was out. We do our best, but sometimes, the crowd gets a little loud, or runners get a little deaf (either intentionally or otherwise).

at what point in time does the BR have to stop running the bases when they are retired? How about this scenario...

assume its a rec league game thus the "dumbness" is easier to imagine
runner on 2nd 1 out, fly ball to LF, the BR jogs half way to 1st base, the LF makes the catch, then the BR decides to sprint not only to 1st, but continues on towards 2nd (basically just being a jack*ss), the LF, confused, throws the ball towards 2nd base, too late to "get" the BR, and the BR continues to sprint towards 3B (note, his team is in the 1B dugout). the 2B, also confused, throws the ball to the 3B, now the BR is in a pickle between 2B and 3B. all the while, the runner on 2nd tags and scores.

is this a legal, but bush league play by the BR?
does the defense have a responsibility to know who is out but still on the field of play?

[steveshane67]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I forgot to put "probably R1" in parenthesis. The OP says that all of the runners held at their bases to tag up, so I didn't think that R1 would have reached HP yet, since R3 had yet to make it to 2B before B4 interfered.

the runner on 3rd did reach home b4 anyone reached 2nd, he was fast and both the BR and R3 were slow, and i believe R3 actually left the base a little bit and had to go back and tag after the catch.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I forgot to put "probably R1" in parenthesis. The OP says that all of the runners held at their bases to tag up, so I didn't think that R1 would have reached HP yet, since R3 had yet to make it to 2B before B4 interfered.

Good point, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by steveshane67

the runner on 3rd did reach home b4 anyone reached 2nd, he was fast and both the BR and R3 were slow, and i believe R3 actually left the base a little bit and had to go back and tag after the catch.

In that case, since the INT happened after the runner had scored, you would call R2 out (the runner, not the droid - the droid has that zappy thing that zaps you). 8-7-P does not say that it's the runner closest to home at the time of the pitch, so it's the runner closest to home at the time of INT.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by steveshane67

at what point in time does the BR have to stop running the bases when they are retired? How about this scenario...

assume its a rec league game thus the "dumbness" is easier to imagine

Boy, you've just confirmed to us you aren't a coach! You're gonna fit right in here...

Originally Posted by steveshane67

runner on 2nd 1 out, fly ball to LF, the BR jogs half way to 1st base, the LF makes the catch, then the BR decides to sprint not only to 1st, but continues on towards 2nd (basically just being a jack*ss), the LF, confused, throws the ball towards 2nd base, too late to "get" the BR, and the BR continues to sprint towards 3B (note, his team is in the 1B dugout). the 2B, also confused, throws the ball to the 3B, now the BR is in a pickle between 2B and 3B. all the while, the runner on 2nd tags and scores.

is this a legal, but bush league play by the BR?
does the defense have a responsibility to know who is out but still on the field of play?

If you read 8-7-P in its entirety, you'll find:

A runner continuing to run and drawing a throw may be considered a form of interference.

So basically, no, this is not legal. The same rule would apply.

Runners can do, essentially, whatever they want on the bases once they are out. It's whether or not their actions actually HINDER the defense from making a play on another runner that defines a call of interference. As Irishmafia frequently says on here, "runners can't go 'poof' once they are out," and that's very true. However, once they are out, they SHOULD stop running the bases and avoid getting in the way.

The defense does have some obligation to know what's going on. If the batter-runner overruns 1B (without attempting to advance to 2B), the defense should know that tagging the BR is not an out. However, when you have multiple runners, things can, and will, get confusing for fielders. If a runner who was put out behaves in a way that they shouldn't (ie., continuing to run), and they hinder the defense, there's your INT.

[steveshane67]

Boy, you've just confirmed to us you aren't a coach! You're gonna fit right in here...

If you read 8-7-P in its entirety, you'll find:

So basically, no, this is not legal. The same rule would apply.

Thanks a lot for all the help.

I played HS baseball and now play in a local softball league and umpire from time to time. I dont pretend to know all the rules, but know most of them. apparently i missed the ruling on the runner closest to home at the time of the INT.

to be honest with you, on the play from the initial post, the R3 very well might have been out, b4 R1 scored, if the BR wasnt involved in the play so my thought process was to not punish the defense (by allowing the run to score) bc of an "infraction" by the offense.

Funny thing is, the team at bat never argued the run should score, they only argued that there shouldnt be interference called on the BR. I guess you dont need to know every rule, just more than the players in the game.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by steveshane67

Thanks a lot for all the help.

I played HS baseball and now play in a local softball league and umpire from time to time. I dont pretend to know all the rules, but know most of them. apparently i missed the ruling on the runner closest to home at the time of the INT.

Hey, we all have to start somewhere, right?

Originally Posted by steveshane67

to be honest with you, on the play from the initial post, the R3 very well might have been out, b4 R1 scored, if the BR wasnt involved in the play so my thought process was to not punish the defense (by allowing the run to score) bc of an "infraction" by the offense.

Sometimes, it's difficult to tell, especially if you're calling a single-umpire game. In time, you'll learn what to look for and when.

Originally Posted by steveshane67

Funny thing is, the team at bat never argued the run should score, they only argued that there shouldnt be interference called on the BR.

I'm not terribly surprised. Players are like lemmings - they follow the ball until it leads them off the cliff.

Originally Posted by steveshane67

I guess you dont need to know every rule, just more than the players in the game.

We all try our best to learn as much as we can, but sometimes, it all boils down to the above statement.

[BretMan]

SS67,

I see that you found your way to a REAL umpire discussion board!

No doubt the answers you get on this forum will be far superior to the player-induced ramblings you find on SoftballFans.com.

Welcome aboard!