Poor OC
 

League play-offs, time has expired, home team at bat down by 1 run. R1 on 2nd, 2 outs, Ball hit to right field. BR makes it and stops on first. R1 round 3rd and is coming home. Ball is relayed to pitch in the circle. Pitcher does not attempt to throw it home. I hear 1st base coach yell go...go...go. BR takes off to second. I call dead ball before R1 scores. BR out, R1 returned to third. Ball game!

Needless to say the home team manager comes running out. Stated that because she was more than half way between bases R1 should be awarded home. I told him no the effect of this rule is that the runners go back to the last base touched. He told me that he was protesting.

So now all the board members there are huddling around the rule book. So, I asked for the rule book and showed them the rule and effect. 8-7-T-2 effect.

Don't you wish there was such a thing as a Coaches Error (CE).

Were they expecting to find a rule like..

"If the runner is more than 1/2 way home when the offense cheats, award the runner home."

:confused:

As you describe this play, I do not believe the LBR applies. A ball was put into play and there were still active runners. If you are going to effect the LBR, does that mean that the pitcher must stop playing at this point?

I know there are purist out there (even though the LBR is not part of it) who believe the LBR should be in effect ANYTIME the pitcher has the ball in the circle. I disagree.

The purpose of the LBR is not to stop play, but to control the game between plays.

I umpire baseball, not softball, but the OP rule sounds like a chance for the defense to stop play prior to any runner scoring....as in, dont throw home, just throw to F1 in the circle. Explain please....

From the way I read the OP, I am tending to agree with you in regard to the LBR. I am envisioning the ball coming into the circle(and pitcher's possession) and R2 (former BR) immediately heading to second with no pause or hesitation.

However, even though the LBR may have been wrongly applied, it appears the OC wasn't concerned about that aspect of it, but instead only concerned about the runner placement. If that is the case, and the coach isn't protesting the application of the rule, but the awarding of runners, then the play, as described, must stand.

I'm sorry, was this thread supposed to evoke sympathy towards a coach?

Must've missed that... ;)

LBR may or may not been correctly applied - by the description I would categorize that at worst - HTBT; however probably correct. A runner stopped at first with the ball in the circle cannot dart for 2B. Thats pretty much in black and white as all of you know- So it very well could have been correct.

This is very similar to the walk - br to 2B with R1 @ 3B and ball returned to the pitcher in the circle. Timing would be everything and there very well could be a LBR at 3B if things are not properly handled.

Irish...Thanks for the "food-for-thought". In this case I saw the pitcher receive the ball look at the runner at third, and judged her not to attempt a play at home. She had the ball for a good 2 to 3 seconds before the BR took off.

My only question back to you is; If you don't call the rules as written (call it being a purist) are you not penalizing the other team?

Caveat Lector! Mike thinks the whole LBR is a crock.

just out of curiosity, what age group was this?

I have a hard time imaging a scenario where in a playoff game in the last inning, the pitcher has the ball in the circle, the tying run is 4 seconds away from scoring and the pitcher doesn't even attempt a play at the plate.

Which is why, in my post, I left the opening for this possibility by saying how I envisioned it. It could very well have been correctly applied, but as I also stated, that doesn't seem to be the issue with the coach, so this is all pretty much moot anyway. :cool:

LBR does apply
 

The fact that the lead runner was rounding third has no bearing on the play. All of the elements for the look back rule are in place.

1. The BR made it to first base.
2. The BR stopped on 1st base.
3. The pitcher had the ball.
4. The pitcher was in the circle.
5. The pitcher did not make a play on another runner.

All the elements are there. The LBR is not applied to all runners simultaneously. In other words, you can have a player who is in jeopardy of being called out on the LBR while another runner is not. This is one example. Another is: R1 on 3rd. Batter draws a walk. R1 is off of the bag on the release of the pitch and has come to a stop. The BR steps on first and goes to second. The pitcher has the ball in the circle. If the pitcher makes no attempt to retire the BR, R1 is in jeopardy of being called out if she does not go back to 3rd. She had her one stop. She now must advance to home or return to 3rd.

It was 12U, the pitcher gave up on the play.

Okay, I thought y'all be smart enough to pick up and talk about my point, but apparently I need to explain it. :rolleyes:

My point is when does the pitcher stop becoming a fielder and return to the status of a pitcher?

Based on what I am reading in the replies, the pitcher is always a pitcher and never a fielder. Do you enforce the LBR immediately if a pitcher catches a ball in flight in the circle? If so, you have removed a runner's right to tag up and advance on a caught fly ball. Of if running on the pitch and has reached the next base, the ability to attempt to return to the base they need to tag to avoid being put out.

This was discussed two years ago at the UIC Clinic with Walt Sparks and, at least in my group, the consensus seemed to be that the LBR isn't in effect until, in the judgment of the umpire, the effects of the ball being put into play are completed.

Think about it from a runner's point of view. A throw from the outfield is cut off by SOMEONE in the middle of the infield. Do you really expect the runners and coaches to be able to immediately identify this player as the one who pitched the ball and adjust their running assignments accordingly?

As previously stated, I don't believe this was the purpose of the LBR. Whether I like the rule or not is irrelevant to the discussion.

I only do NSA rules. I assume the above is an accurate quote of ASA or Fed or some other rule set. If so, LBR criteria are met. However..............

In NSA, it does not even meet the first requirement:
"Look Back Rule: When a runner is legitimately off a base........."
The BR (Now R2) was not off base.

No LBR

The OP Said....
 

...that the BR broke for second after stopping at 1st. When the runner stopped at 1st all of the elements for LBR where in place. When she headed toward 2nd she was in violation of the LBR. Once you stop at a base you can not leave it for any reason when the pitcher has the ball in the circle unless the pitcher makes a play on a runner.

Somewhere in the umpire manual or the case book or the rules supplement is an admonition that the LBR is not in effect when F1 in the circle acts as a cutoff. The governing principle might be as follows: "With a play in progress, the LBR does not necessarily go into effect the instant F1 gets the ball in the circle. Depending on the type of play, use your judgment to give the runners a little time to make the transition from ball in play to ball in the circle."

The OP is a HTBT, but unfortunately, the call was apparently correct. I think that the LBR has outlived whatever usefulness it had, especially at the higher levels.

I tend to agree with Mike on this one. 8.7.T shouldn't be used as a "gotcha" in the middle of playing action to get an out. If runners were still advancing legitimately, playing action hasn't really ceased, and the F1 hasn't really gone from being a fielder to being the pitcher.

In this situation, what was called in the OP was a case of "rulebook right, ballfield wrong," IMHO.

However, now that dead ball was (incorrectly?) called, you can't advance the runner coming home, so putting her back on 3B was the right thing to do.

If ASA actually wants that to be the official interpretation (in red), they should be a lot more clear about when the pitcher stops being a fielder. Is she still a fielder if she is exhibiting defensive indifference to a runner, as apparently was the case in the OP? Here is what the RS says:In the OP, I can see giving the pitcher and the runners time for the pitcher to transition from fielder to pitcher. That is the HTBT part of the OP. But, that is not the same thing as waiting until "the effects of the ball being put into play are completed." If that were the case, then R1 could just stand off 3B while F1 has the ball in the circle while the BR continues on to 2B.

However,
 

"Playing action" isn't a part of the LBR definition. Now maybe it should be and personally I would support the change. However, the rulebook is clear that once you have stopped at a base and the pitcher has the ball in the circle, you can not leave said base unless the pitcher makes a play. Some coaches understand the look back rule and will not throw in this situation knowing that the runner on 1st can advance. If they believe they don't have a good chance at getting the lead runner out, they will just hold the ball. Similar to the play where R1 on 3rd gets a lead off on the release of the pitch as the BR walks to first. Once the BR touches 1st base the LBR is in effect if the pitcher has the ball in the circle. Often times the BR will continue on to 2nd. Many coaches teach their pitcher to not make a play. The lead runner at 3rd better be heading back to 3rd at this point. And most teams teach the player to do just that. Are you going to allow the lead runner to stand off of the base until the BR gets to 2nd? I'm not. I don't see that the OP is much different than this play.

Fielding the ball is a lot different from the ball being returned to the pitcher. I think in this case you can only go by if the pitcher attempted to make or feint a play per book rule. By no means am I saying, "oh, she received the ball, oh she left the base, deadball"! But, in this case the pitcher has the ball, she was not attempting a play, the OC yells go..go...go and the runner goes.

Personally, I think she had a play at home, but this was 12U rec, the pitcher has been watching or playing softball at least since she was 4. The catcher was not that good, and maybe she wanted to stop the runner from advancing to second.

Last year at The So-cal 18gold regional the UIC said something to me that makes since. "You can never be wrong for making a call supported by the book".

In no way did I make a quick call on this. I never do, but at some point you have to make the call and then be ready to explain your ruling.

IMHO it would have been easy to turn a blind eye to this play, but then I may have been the cause of one team winning over the other. Instead it was the coach.

hmmmm.... whatchasayboutdis, wade? :)

BTW in sub-sets of a rule typically rule numbering 1...2...3... does not mean#1 needs to be met, it means 1, 2, or 3... need to be met. They are all equal

Depends whether they are joined by "and" or "or."

Ha!

The WORST calls are sometimes supported by the rule book :D

The bottom line here is I need to get fired from my 8 to 5 job so I can collect unemployment and start my own business. Then I can stop only working rec. and travel, and start working higher level ball.:D

Mickey Mouse and I are not friends.

Okay, that's more like it.

Yes, I do believe the LBR is no longer a necessity. Instead of providing control of the runners to keep the game moving (OMG, a speed up rule!), it has become a tool for a defensive strategy. The rule and it's application has gotten out of control.

I agree with Tom that there should be a more definitive demarcation of when a player is a pitcher or fielder.

Well, I don't know you could make the case it was ever a necessity, but it is very helpful at younger ages, because otherwise the same silly stuff that now goes on between catchers and runners would just move to between pitchers and runners. OC's would dare pitchers to try to pick off the runner, betting that the runners will be able to advance many more times than they are tagged out.

I do think that at the upper levels, the rule is largely superfluous.

Do you keep a rule that mainly helps at the lower levels of the game? I say "yes", but I would be very open to modifications as suggested: the LBR does not go into effect until the ongoing play from a batted ball is over.

I think it would be more to control the coaches who still think the rules they played in the sand lot 20 years before still apply ;)

Or worse... those who use Tim McCarver as their coaching expert!

In an NCAA game I worked as BU a couple of years ago, a runner (advancing on a hit) rounded 3B as the ball came in to F1. F1 turned to see the runner stop about 8 feet down the line and then turned away as the runner began to retreat to 3B. F5 saw the runner returning, recognized that there was no play, and moved back to her normal fielding position.

I'll concede that I don't try to follow every runner back to every base after every play. But I did happen to keep an eye on this runner, even though the entire ballpark knew that the play was over and the runners weren't going anywhere.

In this case, however, the runner stopped momentarily in mid-stride one step before 3B, and with her left leg raised, pulled up her sock before taking the last step onto the bag.

The defensive coach wanted an out on the LBR (second stop after F1 got possession). My immediate impulse was to say, "You gotta be kidding." I then considered, "I didn't see it." But I decided on, "I thought she kept moving, Coach. Never quite stopped completely." He didn't pursue the matter, but according to the rule book, he was right.

I admit that I chose the ballpark call over the rule book call.

(NCAA's LBR is not exactly the same as ASA's, but it wouldn't differ on that play.)

Wasn't the final out of a game in the WCWS or in the regionals several years ago a runner on 3B ruled out because she stepped off the bag to pick of a pebble or something?

That was UCLA, but not the final out. I believe it was the year before where it was the final out when a runner on 2b had a brain fart and wondered off the base early.

And then there was the World Cup of Softball last year when the final out was called by the PU on a LBR violation that really wasn't. The reason it wasn't is because the runner was returning at a very slow pace, in reverse.

There is absolutely no particular rate of speed or direction required. If a player lifts her leg to pull up her stockings, some part of her body is moving, and if her motion isn't backward, it's forward. IMJ, she's good and not in violation of the LBR.