Batter awarded 1st base?
 

High school varsity. The count is 3-1, nobody on base. Next pitch is called a strike and the catcher throws to 1st base thinking it was the third strike and the batter was out. Coach of the batting team calls time and says batter should be awarded 1st base since the catcher threw the ball to 1st. I'm the plate umpire and am not aware of the rule, so I call time and ask the more experienced base umpire. He tells me the coach is correct so I award the batter 1st base. No protest from the opposing coach. After the game, I tell my partner I learned something new today. He says he's certain it is an ASA rule but not sure about NFHS. I can't find anything about this in the NFHS books. Should the batter be awarded 1st base? Please cite which rule this is.

Rule 6-7-B addresses this for ASA.

I'm trying to come up with a way to not make that call. Seems silly to have ball 4 in the sitch.

NFHS 6-3-2

Good tough call blue.

Reason to make the call: It's the RULE!!

Reason not to make the call: Because you think you know more than those that make the rules.

I hate that rule. Some others, too.

Does that rule apply during a dead ball?

Does it apply if the catcher mistakenly thinks the batter has become a batter-runner on an uncaught strike 3 (e.g., batter runs after a checked swing on a 2-2 pitch that gets away from F2)?

Another reason to not make the call is the exception:

"Intentionally violating the rule in order to walk the batter without pitching shall not result in a ball being awarded to the batter."

...as in tie game, 7th inning, division leading home run hitter at the plate.

I always try to announce the count when the next pitch might be decisive, even if/when the batter takes the pitch. So almost anytime the batter has either or both of 3 balls or 2 strikes.

Ted

Try: Can't make that call coach, I had my eyes closed and didn't see it happen.::rolleyes:

I'm not particularly found of the rule myself.. among others..

Hell, make me ASA king for a day and crash interference is gone, metal cleats are in, any type of verbal OBS or INT or faking out a runner being OBS is gone, add back in "about to receive" for OBS

Still gotta enforce the rules, fed or ASA... we dont get to pick.

Its a tough call and you make it and thats it.

A point of clarification, the rule states that a ball is awarded to the batter. It is not an automatic first base award as some are, I believe, inadvertantly insinuating. In your case it is a ball on the batter, which was ball 4.

Sometimes I do know more then those who make the rules. :D

I may kick the hell out of the rules on softball diamonds all across the Western USA but I never knowlingly ignore or kick a rule. :cool:

It still seems silly to make that call but I will.

Well, we're talking about high school varsity FP here. How many of you would make the same call on a 10U game?

You're lucky if the catcher can consistently get it back to the pitcher in the first place.

10u tournament ball is the same as everything else IMO, and especially championship play.

Tourney ball is, of course, different. But if you're calling the local 10U rec game, would you still make that call?

I don't think there's a right or wrong answer here.

Sorry I disagree but, there is clearly a right call: ball four, catcher did not return the ball to the pitcher; and a clear wrong call: ignore the whole thing because you don't like the rule.

Make me ASA king for a day and gone is the rule that allows the offense to benefit by deliberately committing interference.

I still want to know whether a "ball" is awarded during a dead ball (e.g., after a foul) or after F2 throws to 1B in a mistaken attempt to get a putout on the BR.

BuggBob: You are of course correct that we cannot ignore even idiotic rules. In 10u rec, however, they're not paying you to make a shambles of the game. Are you going to call every illegal pitch in 10u rec? Is your strike zone going to be as the book defines it? Are you going to enforce the lookback rule according to the book? Are you going to let runners break for the next base on the throw to the mound, or are you going to call time out to end the chaos when the runners stop?

Incidentally, I can cite some rules that I would never call, partly because they're bad rules, partly because almost nobody knows them.

The rule applies any time the catcher does not throw the ball directly back to the pitcher with no runners on, except after a strikeout (can throw around), a put out (can throw around), or an attempted put out by the catcher.

Yes; after a foul ball that is retrieved by the catcher. Yes, a mistaken attempt is not an attempt (except in NCAA); there has to be someone to attempt to put out.

ASA 8.7-B, NFHS 6-3-2, NCAA 10-16 (NCAA does grant the added exception of the BR runs even if not entitled to run)

On a dead ball I say no, how can you award anything that occurs during a dead ball?

On the 2nd question I would say if there was some type of legitimate confusion based on a call that the umpire had to make (check swing for example) then I say you have nothing, especially if the runner takes off as you first mentioned. Rules allow an umpire to correct this.

And that's basically what I was getting at. If I'm calling a purely rec game with small kids, I'm not going to go by the exact letter of the rulebook, and you'd be deluding yourself if you say you'd do otherwise. As long as the defense does not gain some sort of advantage and as long as the integrity of the game is preserved, I will not call it for small kids. If a coach wants to protest it, s/he may, and I'll let the league decide if they really want me to nitpick every rule on a 10U game.

Mind you, I don't call FP. I only call SP. However, for the first 4 years of my umpiring career, I called kids' games, ranging from age 9 through 14.

A rules discussion is separate from an "officiating rec league / beer league" discussion IMO.

NCAA calls for a warning on the first offense (F2 not returning the ball to the pitcher) and ejection (!) on the second.

Batter hits a pop toward the 3B dugout. F2 and F5 give chase. F2 dives in a vain attempt to make the catch, and smothers the ball with her body. F2 pulls the ball out from under her and while still lying on the ground flips it to F5, who is standing a few feet away.

I want to see an umpire force in the winning run by calling a ball on that.

Calls like that are not appreciated....

Whatsa "mound"? ;)

Gotta go with what Mike said "I did not see that, coach"

I want to end a state tournament with this call:

Bases loaded, 2 out, 3-2 count. Bottom 7, tie game.

Batter fouls a ball off the backstop. As F2 retrieves it, F3 goes to the circle to say something to F1. From the backstop, F2 throws the ball directly to F1 in the circle, but F3 sticks out her glove and catches it.

Ball 4! Hooray! Gave over! Great call, ump!

At a meeting last spring, our state UIC himself gave us (county UICs) an example of "bad judgment" (his term) that involved calling a game-ending ball 4 or illegal pitch in a state tournament. I wish I could remember exactly what it was, but I think it involved a resin bag or a replacement glove or some other technical violation that nobody in the park had ever heard of. In essence, what he was saying was, "Ignore technical violations in crucial situations. Don't end a tournament on bull****." My own thought was, "Better not to write the rule in the first place."

Personally, I'd like to see the umpire given wider discretion. On things like F2 not throwing to the pitcher, my king-for-a-day rule would be simply that the catcher shall not delay the game by failing to return the ball directly to the pitcher. The book could recommend that the umpire give a warning and call a ball for future violations, something like calling a ball for stepping out of the box.

Whatsa "mound"?

You got me there. I simply cannot shake the habit of using that term, just as, try as he might, Ralph Kramden couldn't avoid saying "puh-LOP-uh-neez" for "POE-lo POE-neez" (if you remember that episode).

And here I thought you were smarter than that. Steve has already addressed this.

Speaking ASA. The rule is not in effect with runners on base or when the batter becomes a BR. (6FP.7.B, 6MP.7.B, 6SP.6.B, 6SP16".6.B)

Well, there is a team in the other dugout that is supposed to be playing by the same rules. What about them? Does a red traffic light only apply to those who slow down when they see an amber light or everyone?

That said, an intelligent umpire will use preventive umpiring to avoid some of the dumber things that occur on the field. However, some people just aren't smart enough to know when they are being given a opportunity
to not do something stupid.

Unfortunately, there are too many coaches AND umpires who look for that "gotcha!" out. And, no, I would rather a game NOT end on a controversial call or some super double-secret rule that only umpires remember. However, it isn't the umpire who ends the game, it is one of the teams on the field.

The only problem with that is the "discretion" often becomes a GAGA crutch for some umpires. And all of a sudden, a rule is never enforced by some no matter how often or ridiculous it becomes on the field. This also can turn into a disservice to the teams and other umpires when a team runs into a situation where some of the antics or previous allowances are not available without repercussion.

The umpires that understand the game know when and where certain things should be handled one way or the other and unless a serious injustice toward the opposition is the result of such discretion, it is often accepted and, that too, can be reliant upon the level or class of the game being played.

You'd lose the protest. The rule doesn't apply with runners on base.

Gah! 2 minutes too late. :D

"The rule doesn't apply with runners on base."

Yes, I blew it. I'll stick by my other comments, though.

A hill.

You sure want to stick with the part I highlighted above? I believe it would be a strike :D

You sure want to stick with the part I highlighted above? I believe it would be a strike

I'm going to go back to bed and get up again.

I'm going to go back to bed and get up again

LOL.

Amen mule man. Had my one of those days last week. I was one off all day.

I think it is the culture shock from Yankee to Damn Yankee

I think it is the culture shock from Yankee to Damn Yankee

You mean just because I told a couple of good ol' boys that the insensitive display of the stars & bars on their pickup truck would never do in Greenwich or Scarsdale?

Like anyone in Greenwich or Scarsdale would even know what the Stars & Bars is!

In high school when the batter hits a foul ball the rule simply does not apply. The last action in the game was not a pitch, it was a batted ball. The NFHS rule states after each pitch. If the foul ball is a continuation of the pitch (the rule still applies) and you apply that strictly then a foul ball retrieved by any other player would have to be returned to the catcher to be returned to the pitcher.

Can't you hear the coach, "I don't care if the right fielder retrieved that foul ball - the rule book says that after each pitch the CATCHER shall return the ball to the pitcher."

Real simple answer, "Coach the fielder was not returning a pitched ball to the pitcher, she was returning a batted ball." This is the same answer I would give in the situation where the catcher dives for a foul ball and then tosses it to another player.

NFHS rule 2-2-2 defines a batted ball, I am saying it is no longer a pitch once it becomes a batted ball.

Marvin gets it!!!

Time to have fun. If the catcher retrieves the ball that was fouled off, isn't that after the pitch?

What about a wild pitch the catcher chases down the fence along the 1B side of the infield and flips to F3 who was also chasing the ball because she is between the catcher and pitcher? Is that a pitched ball after a pitch? :D

Obviously, I'm just jerking this around. This rule was meant to keep the game moving and unless there is some obvious delay, I'm not awarding the batter anything on these types of events.

No - it is after a batted ball. To me, the rule clearly does not apply and this is exactly the situation my first post addressed.

My interpretation is that retrieving this ball is a legal play thus ending the 'pitch'. I would tell a coach that both the catcher and first baseman were making a play on the ball and the pitch had ended with this play. I believe this in in line with the intent of the rule. What would happen if another player besides the catcher retrieves the ball in this situation? Does it have to be returned to the catcher so she can return it to the pitcher? That is the logical result if you consider the ball is still a 'pitch'.

BTW - I am talking NFHS here.

Uh-oh, Marvin...
 

NFHS case book 6.3.2 Situation C: The bases are empty and the batter has a count of no balls and one strike. On the next pitch, the batter hits a foul ball which the catcher retrieves and throws to third base. RULING: A ball is awarded to the batter and the count becomes one ball and two strikes.

Ted

Well I guess if that ball is retrieved by the third baseman she has to give it to the catcher to return to the pitcher and the coach in my earlier post is correct. I would say that "throwing the ball to third base" is not the same as tossing the ball to another player in foul territory.

NOT the Stars and Bars
http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Page...erate-flag.jpg


THE Stars and Bars
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/u/us-csa.gif

Hmm.. that 2nd one wouldnt look quite as good on some idiots 1978 Ford F150 bumper. No wonder it quite never caught on.

Yeah, it doesn't quite go with the gun rack in the back of the cab or some of the other items of note.:D

Thanks, tcblue13. This has been an edifying day.

The flag on the pickup trucks is actually the "Battle Flag of the Confederacy."

I'll be sure to correct the backwoods boys on that point, too.

My cousin, who lives nearby, is a dedicated participant in annual re-creations of battles of the Civil . . . er, the War Between the States. He always skips the surrender, though.

You are off base with both of these comments.

After a foul ball, if the catcher retrieves it with no runners on base, throwing the ball to anyone other than the pitcher is an awarded ball; the rule says so.

On the second part, it frankly doesn't matter if the batter runs; the catcher may only legally play on a batter-runner. As to rules allowing an umpire correction, they ONLY apply if there was delayed or reversed call by an umpire; not if F2 was simply wrong, or confused by the batter (who is not a batter-runner by rule). Don't look to reverse calls or not apply the rules simply because the catcher was confused (or you don't agree with the rule).

Well, yeah, to a point. There were so many Confederate flags and associated stories, sometimes it depends on who is telling a particular war story as to which one it was. Different variations of the Stars and Bars originated in different areas of VA from Tidewater to Piedmont regions of the state.

The most popular was usually associated with the ANV (Potomac). Problem is that many believe the Stars & Bars was and is the real and only flag of the CSA.

So...you have other hobbies besides umpiring and beer, I see! ;)

Are you sure they didnt just copy the Puerto Rican flag?

No, I lived in the deep South in the '70s and needed to do research so I could stay with the GOB.

Actually, they copied the flag of Scotland.