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Another ASA Play
0 outs, R1 on 2B. B2 hits a grounder to F6 who makes a play to 1B. The BR just beats the throw, but only touches the white portion of the double base.
As F3 throws to 3B in an attempt to get the late-breaking R1, B2 takes a hard left and continues to 2B. R1 is tagged out. The defense then makes a live ball appeal that B2 missed 1B since he did not tag the colored portion of the base. The umpires consult and rule that the appeal is not applicable and B2 safe. The defense then protests the game on the basis of the umpire crew's misinterpretation of rule 8.2.M.3 The PU refuses to accept the protest. Is this correct? If not, why? UIC Clinic attendees - please refrain from responding for at least 24 hours. |
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As for the rule, I can't see any reason it wouldn't apply. Unless I'm to read that B2 did not overrun the base. If B2 stopped on 1st base, then in my view that is a return and he's not out on appeal. ________ SexbombPerry |
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And I like the way you used BR to refer to the Batter Runner. Why do we give the Batter Runner a number? And I'll refrain from mentioning how inane it is to say: "R1 at second." Hijack over, answer Mike's question, the answer is very interesting. |
Did the PU refuse to accept the protest because it was not made before the "next play" on the runner from 2nd going to third?
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Well....according to 9.1.A.2 a protest on a playing rule interpretation cannot be accepted after the "next play," and a subsequent play had occurred. So, I would have to say that all is okay in the OP, unless, of course, there is something that I am missing!
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If a protest is made here on misinterpretation of the rule, it should be allowed. I can't see a valid reason not to allow it.
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Original play, and all plays this weekend, referred to the Batter Runner as B3 (in this case) or B2. This system directly lead to our group misreading one particular play.
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________ Web shows |
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http://www.nfhs.org/web/2009/02/2009...s_interpr.aspx And yes, region 3 people like to complain :D |
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No, I did not write them down. BR is not assigned a # as there can only be one and it is a temporary designation at that. B2 is the proper designation as the set-up info provides. There is no, nor should there be, B3 in the scenario. And "R1 on 2B" is the appropriate set-up (keep your baseball on the other board :rolleyes:). Did you not pay attention? It cannot be the alcohol since you did not drink that much.....so it must be those damn cigars you were sucking on.:D |
Ok, you are right (jet lag I guess . . . and for 1- I'm way bigger than the pineapple, so I can't be "little" and 2- I am no pineapple).
Then why give a number when the batter is at bat and remove the number? Crazy convention. I have not discussed one baseball play, so I do not know of their conventions. R1 being on first is more efficient. (Darn, I said I was finished with the hijack) And I did my drinking away from the country bar. Blame it on the Boone's!!! |
My take will focus on the PU not accepting the protest. Simply stated, he can't accept or deny a protest. It's his responsibility to notify the opposing manager that the game is being played under protest. So the PU was wrong in that regard,
The play at first base where a BR touches only the white portion of the base is an appeal that must be made immediately. Given that the defense opted to retire another member of the offense, i.e. they made a play and retired the runner, the appeal at 1B for only touching the white portion of the double base is no longer in play. That's my guess, but I'm not sure where that's written or otherwise spelled out in the rule book. An added opinion, I never like the rule that says if the runner misses the base on a banger at 1B that we're suppose to call the runner safe and then wait for the defense to appeal. If F3 hears a safe call, even knowing the runner missed the base, but sees another runner advancing, it's likely that he'll need to make a play on that runner immediately rather than risk an appeal. Sure, he could yell out the runner missed the base and that could be considered an appeal, even as he's making the play on another runner. That would require some very quick thinking by a really head's up player. Ted |
I'm looking at the question given: was the PU's refusal to accept the protest correct? My answer: hell no. Is this PU just afraid of a silly little protest? Get it right, bub. If you blew it, you blew it, but accept the protest of a rule interpretation and get that game moving.
As for the appeal, well, this is simply a missed base appeal. BR was supposed to tag the orange bag, but did not. They missed the bag. I've got another out. :D |
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________ lesbians Cam |
The coach can protest balls and strikes if he likes. It's not up to the plate umpire to accept or deny. Unless the coach follows up with a written protest to the league officials within the timeframe stipulated by league bylaws, it will become moot.
Even if it is filed properly, the UIC and/or league officials will rule on it or simply throw it out if it's deemed invalid. If a coach came to me and told me he was protesting my strike zone and I told him it wasn't a protestable issue and he said he was protesting anyway, I'd inform the other coach and get the game moving again. Ted [sometimes referred to as "bub"] |
Thirty-three years ago I saw a game put under protest based on the umpire. Not a play, not an interpretation, not a ruling. Just a protest of the umpire himself.
I know it sounds like something out of Sartre or Kafka, but it did happen. The catcher/manager turned around and said, "We're playing the game under protest." When the umpire responded, "For what?" the catcher said merely "You!" The ump informed the catcher that such a protest was not possible, but the catcher insisted, so the ump announced the protest, and play resumed. I don't know how the league ruled, but I suspect the protest was not upheld. On the other hand, this was New Jersey . . . |
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If that game continued with that catcher/manager any where near the fields, then the umpire was indeed an idiot!!!! |
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Do we have an answer to the riddle?
Thanx, Ted |
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And what was up with the bar closing at 11pm on Thursday? |
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The discussion is base upon the throw to 3B AFTER the BR missed the base. Some consider this the "next play". After making a fool of myself by questioning the requirement of "next play" thanks to a brain fart that reverted to "appeal" as opposed to protest, it was explained, if I remember correctly as that is not the manner in which that qualification was intended. Someone can correct me if wrong. The line of thought was that by using this to refuse the appeal, you are pretty much giving the offending team a break. However, the more I think about it, I don't believe there really is a problem with the sentence. If used as I believe it was meant, in the play above the misinterpretation of the rule occurred when the umpire determined there was no violation by the BR. Hence, there was no play between the misinterpretation and the protest. A team cannot protest an interpretation prior to it being made. |
Mike,
Sorry, have read your last post zillions of times and have not a clue as to what is right, left, up or down.:confused: Thanks, Ron |
There were several important issues in this play. The following is the official ruling and thought process.
When a play was made at 1st base on the BR, the BR was required to touch the orange bag. Touching only the white bag is a missed base, and can be appealed until the runner returns to either bag. In this case the runner proceeded to 2nd, so the runner did, in fact miss touching the correct base. The attempt to retire the other runner is not considered a next play; it is a continuation of the current play, would be considered a subsequent play on a different runner under the obstruction exception, but has no bearing on an appeal. When appealed, the correct ruling should be "out". If the ruling is that the BR did touch the orange bag, then that part would be judgment, but any statement that touching white alone would be allowed is a misinterpretation of a playing rule. Since there was no play made between the misinterpretation and the protest, the protest must be allowed; and since the rule was misapplied in the case play (if not clearly stated in the OP), the ruling must be overturned. So, don't be confused by the "next play"; it was a red herring in the case play, and sure bit Mike. Once the continuing action ended, and time is called (in slow pitch) or could be called (in fast pitch) to hear a dead ball appeal, then and only then can there be a "next play" that would halt a legal protest. |
thanks.
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Mike still owes me a beer for his public "oops" on this one.....
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Region 4 was well represented. Your NC representatives (Phil, BJ and Al) opted out from the extracurricular (although I did drink with Al one dinner).
And there were several of those checks to go around. Our checks did represent GA, AZ, DE, PA, MD, NE and TX, as best I recall. |
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Except Al. He's a bit off. Just kidding, Al's a great guy! |
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Have no idea why the Great Northwest chose to not to share a beverage or two. |
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Ted |
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We should be careful about applying the baseball concept of "continuing action" to softball.
R1 on 2B. B2 hits a grounder to F6, who fakes R1 back to 2B and then throws to 1B. B2 beats the throw but touches only the white (i.e., misses 1B). The ball gets away from F3. B2 advances to 2B. R1 rounds 3B and stands 20 feet down the line, trying to draw a throw. F3 runs the ball in and chases R1 all the way back to 3B. F3 then hands the ball to F1, who is standing next to her near 3B. As F3 returns to her position, F1 walks toward the circle while R1 stands on 3B talking to the 3B coach. Several seconds later, just before F1 enters the circle, R1 breaks for home. F1 throws home in an attempt to get R1 (outcome doesn't matter). The defense now appeals B2's miss of 1B. In ASA, regardless of how much or what type of action occurs after a baserunning error, the defense can appeal until the next pitch, legal or illegal (or the infielders have vacated, or last play of game and umpires have left, etc.). Therefore, the appeal should be upheld. In OBR, the intervening play—after the stoppage of continuing action—would void the right of the defense to appeal. (Note: Fed and NCAA baseball don't follow OBR exactly in this area. I'm not sure, but I think they recognize continuing versus relaxed action but do not void an appeal if the offense initiates the intervening play.) The concept of continuing versus relaxed action certainly complicates the game, but remember that in baseball, runners can break for the next base at any time that the ball is live, such as when the pitcher is getting the sign. In OBR, in theory, several batters could bat without the ball becoming dead. This of course is not true in softball. And (except for Babe Ruth), softball permits dead ball appeals, which OBR does not. |
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Sorry we missed ya. Sounds like the umpire communication broke down. :) |
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Actually, we did attend the Bombay Club Thursday night, since Chisolm's closed early. We stayed with Rod and the Alaska group pretty late that night. But Friday and Saturday we went to Chisolm's; we had an "arrangement" with the barkeep that was mutually advantageous. In fact, it was so advantageous that AZBIGDOG drank MY BEER!! |
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5...4...3...2...1.....I expected Darrell to chime in by now. And yes, when three people drink for nearly two hours for less than $10, it was very advantageous. |
Definitions
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Batter Runner: A player who has completed a turn at bat but has not yet been put out or reached first base. Runner: An offensive player who has reached first base and has not yet been put out or scored. So B1 lays down a bunt, between home and 1st she is a batter runner, by definition. Once she reaches first she now, by definition, becomes a runner. I know there is language throughout the book that uses batter-runner rounding first base (i.e. the Look Back Rule, taking batter-runner to first base, etc), however, the definition disagrees with this. Has anyone else every noticed the discrepancy in the definition and how its used in the book? |
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I was in hell...a black man stuck in a western bar with no real beer in sight.....It was tragic.... |
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I think the PNW is scared of the rest of the country....... |
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Enough people have a problem dealing with the player designations at the beginning of a play. Could you imagine how difficult it would be if it changed midplay? B4, with a 3-2 count, hits a ball to RC. Seeing the ball get past F9, the BR moves wide into foul territory to round 1B. Still watching the ball, R4 bumps into F3 and .... Three separate designations of a player in a single play that isn't even over yet. |
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The only thing would have had to do is figure out how to put on the spurs ;) |
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:) Our NUS is this weekend in Olympia - begins tonight. It sounds like we have a similiar deal with our bartenders already set up - $5 buy in to an open bar. 8 NUS instructors, plus KR showing up to "observe" how we continually and successfully pull off a NUS with over 200 attendees (I think last count we were at 210 or so..) He doesn't think it's possible to be successful (even though we proved the NUS wrong in 2006 with 276 attendees). It's gonna be a good time! |
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Trust me, you are dealing with professionals here. You wouldn't have a prayer. Quote:
How many State schools are there in the Region? |
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All of the states (WA, OR, ID, MT, AK) have state schools - except this year WA combined theirs into this NUS. The three metros hold their own schools as well. Seattle's is spread out over 4 2-hour days - one per month for four months. |
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I will vouch for the PNW/Region 15. They were still in shock because their hospitality was so much better than Region 14 and felt it was better to remain sequestered than to be out and about and -- for no obvious reason -- break into hysterics. |
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General comments, not directed toward Reg. 15 Congratulations on conducting a successful school, but you would die a slow and painful death at the bar :D |
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