This should be an easy one but it has caused some confusion at our game the other night. On a ground rule double how many bases is given to a runner that is on first at the time? The umpire ruled that because the runner was between second and third when the ball went out of play then by his judgement the runner should score or be allowed three bases. Is this an area open for umpire judgement or should all runners be allowed only two bases?

Thanks.

Erma,
Everybody gets two bases from the base occupied at the time of the pitch. There is no additional judgement involved with this.

Steve M

What if the BR became a runner before the ball entered DBT? Would that umpire then award that player 3B?

If so, then it is no longer a ground-rule double, is it? Like Steve said, no judgment, just two bases from the time of the pitch.

Thanks for the answer. That's what I thought the ruling was also but unfortunately we lost that arguement three different times during a double-header the other day. I guess I'll be letting the league director know so some one can update this umpire on the ruling.

Your question is not one of confusion, but, I believe the number of bases awarded is based on where the runner is at. The awarding of two bases is only awarded to the batter. The remaining runner would be awarded bases based on is there force.

Steve, thanks, I was sure on that.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Larry

Quote:

The awarding of two bases is only awarded to the batter. The remaining runner would be awarded bases based on is there force.

Not true. For a ground rule double <font color=blue>"...all runners are awarded two bases from the time of the pitch."</font> (ASA 8-6-I-EFFECT)

Regarding the ground rule double. If there is a runner on first base and a batter hits a towering fly ball. The runner on first scores and the batter is halfway around third when the ball hits the ground and bounces over the fence. By definition, is the runner on first sent back to third and the batter to second? Or does the runner score and the batter at least on third. Is the batter in this situation penalized by the rule. I believe most often, you are only going to get two bases from where you are because the batter and runner(s) will not make the next base before the ball goes over the wall. I read somewhere that in this case it would be in the umpire's judgement, thus nullifying the ground rule double rule.

MHepner
welcome aboard. The board is kinda slow his time of year.

Anyway, in your play and every other play with a "ground rule double", batter-runner and every runner get two bases from their occupied base at the time of the pitch. It does not matter where any runner happens to be when the ball leaves the field - two bases from the time of the pitch.

Steve M

Two Bases Everytime
 

Hepner, it's hard to believe the situation posed - the batter-runner can move around the bases nearly 200 feet yet the defense cannot move a similar distance to get under this towering fly ball....? NO matter - ruling is the same.

If a hit ball goes out-of-play, the defense has been denied opportunity to make a play. The offense is rewarded with a 2-base advancement for all runners.

If the defense was afforded opportunity to field the ball and booted it into dead ball territory (hit ball touched the defense and then bounded into DBT - like the Canseco bounce off of his head over the homerun fence), this is a different story. Two bases are awarded from the time the ball went out of play (I don't have my books to confirm, but I'm pretty sure this is correct).

Oh, and nice play Canseco!

Actually DTTB
 

If the defense does not control the ball before it goes out of play, it is either a GRD or a HR depending on what the ball did before going out of play. For example,
<ol><li>the ball hits off the fielder's glove (or their head) in fair territory and goes over the outfield fence in fair territory - <b>HR</b></li><li>the ball hits off the fielder's glove in fair territory and goes over the outfield fence in foul territory - <b>GRD</b></li><li>the ball hits off the fielder's glove in fair territory and hits the ground or some other object (like the front of the fence) then goes into DBT - <b>GRD</b></li></ol>

SamC

Sam, on your number 3: In ASA, a ball that hits the outfielder's glove, bounces off the fence, hits the outfielder again, and then goes over the fence (fair) is a home run (or four-base award). In baseball it's a double.

Good note. Many people to not realize this was added to the rule book last year.

Damn all you guys off work, or answering from work?

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/jpshakehead.gif
Shame on you. I work construction and don't have lap
computer.

No use jumping in on this, not with the names of the previous
repliers. I did like what DTTB said on the OBS post. Not all of it,
but some of what was said I tend to agree with. Noticably so if a
pickoff is occurring. I am leaning Del-blue, I am. :D



http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/bangin.gif {hard headed glen}
glen

As I've said before, Glen has way too much fun with his cartoon characters! But, the hard headed Glen is by far one of the best.
The comment about 4 base award is right on the money, not HR but 4 base award.

Ground rule double revisted
 

Hepner again. Let's try a few more scenarios on the ground rule double. One response said the defense must be allowed an opportunity to play the ball. OK. Runner on first, batter hits a fly ball that the outfielder is camped under. The outfielder, with the opportunity to make the catch, lets it fall and the ball bounces over the fence. The runner on first has scored and the batter is halfway around third. The defense had ample opportunity to play the ball.
Situation 2: Bottom of the ninth inning, bases loaded, the batting team trails by two. The batter hits a flare into left field that rolls slowly toward the fence. The left fielder slips. As he recovers, he notices the runner on first is around third and ready to score and gives up on the ball feeling the game is over. The ball keeps rolling as the batter scores and at the last moment a) hits a rock, goes over the fence; b) bounces into the ivy; c) goes under the fence. Again, the defense had ample opporunity to field the ball. Why penalize the offense when all that happened is while the ball was still in live play. I think if you research further, the true meaning of ground rule double is that the ball becomes dead when it goes out of play. 99 percent of the time, a batter is not going to reach first, nor a runner the next base before it becomes a dead ball. If you ask Major League umpires, I feel you'll get a different response on the situations I presented.
Thanks, Marty

Sorry Marty,

Even in MLB, if the ball goes out of play off of the bat, it is a GRD and the ooffense is limited to two bases from the base heldat the time of the pitch. The only way the offense can get more than that is if the batter has passed 1st base before the defense <b>releases a throw</b> that ends up in DBT.

SamC

Re: Ground rule double revisted
 

Marty,

I will not attempt to answer for MLU's. However, you posted on the softball
side of the board and here is ASA's Rule on GRD which was cited in earlier post
and now printed.

Rule 8 Sec 6. <b>Runners are entitled to advance without liability to be put out.</b>

[B]QUOTE:<font color = blue> ASA Rule 8 Sec 6 I. "When a fair ball bounces over or rolls under
or through a fence or any designated boundary of the playing field. Also when it
deflects off of a defensive player and goes out of play in foul territory, deflects off
a runner or umpire and goes out of play after having passed an infielder excluding the
pitcher and provided no other infielder had a chance to make an out.</font>[[B]

<b><i>EFFECT: The ball is dead and all runners are awarded <u><font color = red>TWO</i></font> bases from the time of the <font color = red>pitch</font>.

http://www.mansun-nl.com/smilies/smurf.gif
glen

GRD revisited
 

I'd like to present another ground rule double scenario.

Bottom of the ninth inning, bases loaded and the home team trails by two runs. With a 3-2 count, the batter flares a hit into left field. The left fielder, who has ample time to play the ball, slips in his attempt to make the play. Knowing the runners are off with the pitch, the left fielder sees the runner from first about to score what he thinks is the winning run and gives up on the ball. The runner from first scores, but meanwhile the ball keeps rolling in fair territory, then a) bounces into the ivy; b) rolls under the fence; c) bounces over the fence. Is it still a GRD and the runner on first returned to third? Or is that runner allowed to score? What I believe is the ground rule double is based on the ball going out of playing being dead. 99 percent of the time, a batter will not reach first or the runner the next base before the ball bounces out of play. Therefore the ground rule double. But if the ball is still live while the action of the runners is in process, those runners should be awarded their proper bases.

Marty,
Even in your scenario, that is still a ground rule double and everybody gets two bases from the time of the pitch.

Steve M

Time of the pitch
 

Guys, stop trying to concoct situations where extra bases are awarded on a GRD.

If somebody manages to hit a ball so that he runs entirely around the bases and then sits down in the dugout and gets himself a cold drink but then the ball rolls out of play, he has to go back to 2B. IT'S STILL A DOUBLE!

If with some Miken Super Ultra Titanium Atomic Blaster he hits a ball 600 feet up in the air and manages to get around the bases before the ball comes down, but it then bounces over the fence, he has to go back to 2B. IT'S STILL A DOUBLE!

"What if the BR became a runner before the ball entered DBT? Would that umpire then award that player 3B?"

The batter becomes a BATTER/RUNNER as soon as he/she hits a fair ball, gets a base on balls, or may attempt to advance on a missed third strike. And, as others have said, it's TWO bases from the TIME OF THE PITCH!

Bob

I can't believe everyone can't understand this rule. Or Don't want to understand it. It IS that SIMPLE.:confused:

Two bases from the pitch when the ball goes into DBT off the bat.:rolleyes:

Now if the player fielding the ball throws,kicks or causes the ball to go into DBT intentionally It is still two bases, but then it is two bases from the last base touched at the time the ball goes into DBT:p

Or, maybe they are taking to heart the precedence set by the NJ Supreme Court - it doesn't matter what the rule says, you go by what it "fair." http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk...pshakehead.gif

The NJ bench has been known to ignore laws in there determination of what they think it should be. I think the entire state government in New Jersey should just save the money by closing up and going home, the courts are now in control.

I've lived in New Jersey all my life, and this state is sickening when it comes to the courts ignoring the law (and U.S. Senators, too—before Torricelli, there was Abscam Harrison Williams). The façade of the state supreme court building should read, "To hell with the law—we know what's right," as that has been their motto for decades. I'm surprised the U.S. Supreme Court hasn't stepped on the N.J. courts more.

Imagine the N.J. Supremes umpiring a ball game. Well, the letter of the law says he was out, but it was such a nice try, and after all the other team's ahead, and that rule doesn't seem fair in this case, and . . .

[Edited by greymule on Nov 12th, 2002 at 04:06 PM]

;) :p


Uh, is the New Jersey Supremes a new singing group??

:rolleyes: LOL!!

You're thinking of the Sopranos, Lady Blue.

I had given up reading this thread because it was starting to become a little inane. Glad I looked back in on it...there has been some humor injected!


Scott

Okay. But how is this scored for the batter?

Bob