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NCB, you know that. |
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more this season. |
Here's my thoughts on the subject.
As SRW cites, the runner must touch bases in proper reverse order. And the "last time by" policy isn't accepted. So, having missed 2nd, the runner must return and touch 2nd. Assuming he does return to touch 2nd, in order to return to 1st in proper reverse order, he must return again and retouch 1st. In effect, since he missed 2nd, the initial touch of 1st is invalid because it happened out of order. It may be semantics, but the OP doesn't specify live ball or dead ball appeal. If a live ball appeal by tagging the runner (who is in jeopardy), I would accept the appeal as being "clear enough" in its intent. If a dead ball appeal, I believe the defense would have the opportunity during that dead ball period to reasonably explore any realisticly available appeal (in other words, I would answer the initial appeal in such a way as to suggest they might be asking the wrong question, without telling them what question to ask). Or, I could be wrong :). |
From the original post, I'll assume the overthrow stayed in play and the runner advanced to 2B at his own risk.
My opinion is that the runner cannot be called out for missing second base [on appeal] since he's currently standing on it. The appeal was for missing second base, and I think that appeal should be denied. So I select "FALSE" to the original post. However, if the appeal was that the runner did not correctly tag up at 1B, I think the runner should be called out. If an infielder with the ball ran over to the runner standing on second base and tagged him, I'd have to ask for the specific infraction being appealed. I'm not familiar with the last pass concept. A more obvious [but similarly egregious] offense would be if the runner crossed the middle of the diamond from around 3B and went directly to 1B [almost via the pitcher's plate]. But again, appealing the missing of 2B when he's standing on it seems hinkey to me. And, if there was a runner at 3B at the start of all this, and that runner properly tagged and scored, the run would count as the appeal would be considered as a timing play. Ted |
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To start, this is a question on the 2009 ASA test. There is a lot to be desired in the wording as many parameters which could affect the final ruling are not given. For example, in ASA an "overthrow" is a ball which leaves playable territory, but we are not told where the runner was when the throw was released. Nor does it state whether the runner was on 2B before or after an umpire may have made an award. Therefore, let's look at it both ways.
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R1 must be given the opportunity to complete baserunning responsibilities. If the runner makes an effort to return to 1B after the ball is declared dead, it must be allowed and no appeal is available. R1 is awarded home. Assume: Between 1&2 when throw released that goes out of play and no award made at the time. Same as above, but R1 is awarded 3B Assume: Either of above and runner makes no effort to return to 1B when the ball is declared dead. R1 is standing on 2B. IMO, there is no appeal available at 2B. However, if the defense is alert enough, an appeal is still available at 1B. In this scenario, once the umpire hesitates and presents the award, this is the point where the appeal is available. Assume: Ball stays in play. R1 standing on 2B cannot be ruled out for missing the base on which he is standing, but the appeal at 1B is still available. ASA: The given answer (which I question) is True. My argument: Given the info provided, if you call the runner out for missing 2B, you have errored. If I'm the coach and the umpire tells me the runner missed the base on the way back to 1st, I'm going to agree and then tell the umpire that is why the runner returned to 2B, to touch the missed base. Of course, if the defense appeals 1B left too soon, the runner is out, but that is not the appeal at hand. |
[In OBR] Touching a base on your last time by that base corrects any baserunning error you made at that base.
Except a "gross miss." I think we all agree that the runner in the OP is liable to be called out on appeal. The question is, For what? I'm leaning toward "not legally retouching 1B after the catch." After all, if in the OP everything remained the same except that R1 retreated almost all the way back to 1B but then, without touching 1B, returned to 2B to correct his error, he would be considered to have touched 2B but would not have retouched 1B. Why would retouching 1B prevent him from correcting his error at 2B? But ASA may contend that there is no legal retouch of 1B until 2B has been retouched on the return. Therefore, in the OP, even though R1 went back and touched 1B, he never legally retouched it. Incidentally, this is all just surmise on my part. I have no idea whether ASA has thought this situation out to any degree. I can see, though, why OBR observes the principle of "last time by," since it renders all these questions moot. |
So maybe the key "take away" point is that for returning to a base left too soon on a caught fly ball the "tag up" cannot legally happen until all the other bases the runner needed to touch on the way back are in fact legally touched. Hence the appeal is valid but probably for a different reason than the defense is going to be verbalizing.
My question now is, how picky are you going to be about how the defense phrases the appeal? They are not "guessing", they know a baserunning error has occured, but they are not rule book lawyers; we are. IMO, its enough that the offense knows she missed the base, and why she had to touch it. Coach: "Blue I want to appeal that runner missed 2B!" Me: "When was that coach?" Coach: "On her way to tag up at 1B." Me: "And why did she have to go back to 1B?" Coach: (Looking puzzled at this point but still swinging) "Um, becuase she left 1B before the ball was caught?" Me: (So proud of this coach that I am not even bothering to correct the Coach's verbage about caught vs. first touched): "Yes, you are correct Coach! Appeal granted, OUT!" |
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I agree with you, Mike. There is not enough information given to know what to do after the written play is completed. But as you know, ASA doesn't care about the rest of the story when these questions are written. They want you to take it "literal and linear." I took the OP at a literal and lineal face value. "R1 returns to 1B" tells me that R1 indeed touched 1B, so there would not be an appeal of leaving early. "The ball is overthrown" tells me that the ball went past 1B while R1 was on 1B (or after R1 retouched 1B). I didn't assume that "overthrown" meant "out of play" or "into DBT" ... the scenario didn't really discuss where to award bases, so that part really doesn't matter. Besides, if the ball went into DBT, why would R1 be allowed to 'advance to 2B'? The intent, then, is to enforce 8.3.A on appeal. JMHO. |
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All that aside, I still do not have a runner out on an appeal at 2B. 1B, yes, if the team makes such an appeal. Quote:
The reason I may seem anal about this :rolleyes: is there are umpires that will bring this interpretation and start ruling runners out without taking into consideration all the parameters and how the rule books addresses each one. If you take this question and given response at face value, you have just about made it impossible for a runner to ever return to a missed base once they have passed it. |
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The rest of your argument/position now makes sense. |
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