My FUBAR this weekend....

[Andy]

I am BU, R1 on third, 2 outs, batter gets a walk.

B/R runs down to first, turns and continues to second trying to draw a throw to score R1. F2 throws to F6 at second, B/R stops and is now in a rundown.

I bust in from the C position to cover the rundown between first and second. Ball is thrown to first, BR dives back in, I see her hand get to the bag before the tag, come up with a big sell SAFE...just as I am doing this, I see my partner come flying in down the first base line with a big overhand out call!!!!

I'm thinking...WTF are you doing?????

I call him over and ask what's going on..he says, "We had a rundown, I am bracketing it." So I ask him who was watching R1 and did she score before he called the out? His face just went blank and I could see him think....Oh Sh*t!!!!

I will tell you what we did later...what would any of you do?

[MNBlue]

Did either of you see her score before the out? It appears not, so no run.

In depth post game discussion to follow.

[wadeintothem]

Doesnt sound to me like you did anything wrong; PU goofed up. You gotta get together and work it out and youre gonna have to eat some.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

Did either of you see her score before the out? It appears not, so no run.

In depth post game discussion to follow.

What out? And in depth discussion to follow immediately. It was Andy's call. Andy saw the runner safe. The PU messed up and by messing up neither he nor Andy even have a guess at what the right call at home is if you go with what the PU said. So, looks like Andy gets to have an unpleasant discussion with the OC after a discussion where they determine the BR is safe.

Now had the situation been reversed and Andy had had the out, then this is messier. In that situation, your approach may be right but that could be an awfully bad call. Would anyone consider guessing on this? E.g., in my judgment the girl at third was just a touch slower but the rundown lasted long enough that she would likely have scored. Or the girl at third is slower than molasses so the inning is over?
________
COLORADO MARIJUANA DISPENSARIES

[NCASAUmp]

If I had been in Andy's spot, I would have stuck to my call (since it's MY call, not the PU's). Runner's safe, R1 scores.

And PU gets to tell the coach that he screwed up, not me. I'm not eating this one.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

If I had been in Andy's spot, I would have stuck to my call (since it's MY call, not the PU's). Runner's safe, R1 scores.

And PU gets to tell the coach that he screwed up, not me. I'm not eating this one.

I agree; to a point. First part, completely, second part, partially.

Andy is a (don't know the exact title) UIC; the partner appears to be more of a newbie, by the nature of the FUBAR. Putting myself in Andy's place, I think that I would have a better shot at selling the coach (and teams, and parents, and .....) the result of the play.

If the partner is less of a newbie, he can acknowledge to the coach it wasn't his call to make, but if we are going to play ball without ejections, I now step in with "WE didn't handle this right, here's what we have to do by rule." I then repeat that the call at first belongs to me, and that I saw the safe, and safe it will remain.

With the added benefit, no doubt, that safe makes the timing of the runner from third moot. The other way around (I have out, he has safe), I can only pray that I caught a glimpse of the runner to give an educated guess, since PU obviously has his back to home). This isn't like "you don't guess an out", and "I didn't see the run score" doesn't have any validity, because you didn't see that the run didn't score, either. You give it your best SWAG (sophisticated wild-a$$ guess), and suck it up.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

I agree; to a point. First part, completely, second part, partially.

Andy is a (don't know the exact title) UIC; the partner appears to be more of a newbie, by the nature of the FUBAR. Putting myself in Andy's place, I think that I would have a better shot at selling the coach (and teams, and parents, and .....) the result of the play.

If the partner is less of a newbie, he can acknowledge to the coach it wasn't his call to make, but if we are going to play ball without ejections, I now step in with "WE didn't handle this right, here's what we have to do by rule." I then repeat that the call at first belongs to me, and that I saw the safe, and safe it will remain.

With the added benefit, no doubt, that safe makes the timing of the runner from third moot. The other way around (I have out, he has safe), I can only pray that I caught a glimpse of the runner to give an educated guess, since PU obviously has his back to home). This isn't like "you don't guess an out", and "I didn't see the run score" doesn't have any validity, because you didn't see that the run didn't score, either. You give it your best SWAG (sophisticated wild-a$$ guess), and suck it up.

I'm not saying that you should let your partner fry - I don't care how bad or green s/he is, you just don't do that.

You basically have two options here. Either the umpire who made the screw-up (PU, in this case) explains to the coach that it wasn't his call, or the umpire whose call it was (BU, in this case) should be the one to pave things over.

Rank on the field should have nothing to do with who's speaking. However, a veteran umpire should definitely be present to back up the rookie, and if the rookie needs prepping beforehand, that's acceptable as well.

We had a situation in a SP tourney where the pitcher didn't take any pause whatsoever before delivering the next pitch. The PU called, "illegal, no pitch." The batter swung and knocked it to the outfield. The defense had pretty much stopped once they heard "no pitch," but the batter ran all the way to 2B. I, the BU, was the one who explained why we can't "uncall" a "no pitch." As I did so, I thought, "Hey, why am I explaining someone else's screw-up?!" Fortunately, I did so without embarrassing my partner, offered the OC the opportunity to protest (which was declined), and we went on our way.

But I still remember how pi$$ed I was to have to explain someone else's call. Strangely, he was an Elite umpire...

[SRW]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

You basically have two options here. Either the umpire who made the screw-up (PU, in this case) explains to the coach that it wasn't his call, or the umpire whose call it was (BU, in this case) should be the one to pave things over.

There's one more option: you BOTH go to the coach and, like Steve said, approach it with "We screwed up, and this is how we are going to fix it."

Remember, there's nothing wrong with admitting you f'd up when you really did f up. It's how you fix it after the fact that determines how well you got through the situation.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by SRW

There's one more option: you BOTH go to the coach and, like Steve said, approach it with "We screwed up, and this is how we are going to fix it."

Remember, there's nothing wrong with admitting you f'd up when you really did f up. It's how you fix it after the fact that determines how well you got through the situation.

I edited my last post so many times that I forgot to include that part. Yes, both umpires should go to the coach. However, I would have one umpire definitely take lead on this one, and the other should remain close by. Not hiding, but close. Two umpires approaching one coach can send the wrong initial message of "we're ganging up on you."

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by youngump

What out? And in depth discussion to follow immediately. It was Andy's call. Andy saw the runner safe.

You are correct, sir. I completely misread the post - I thought Andy had the out and the PU had the safe. Got carried away with my keyboad.

[Andy]

Here's what we did and (maybe) what we should have done:

First of all, I was at an out of town tournament working with an umpire that I had only met that day. It was our third game together that day...no issues up until this point. From the previous games, I judged that he was an average umpire...I don't know how long he had been at this. It was his fifth game of the day and I think he just had a brain fart from being tired. The instinct to bracket the rundown just took over. Thanks, Steve for the new title, but I'm not any type of UIC, just an umpire that keeps trying to get better.

It was the fourth or fifth inning of my sixth game of the day, so I was a bit tired and didn't get to as good a position as I would have liked. I was near the circle when I made the safe call. Since everyone was watching the play at first base and my partner came charging directly up the first baseline, his big OUT call was what everyone saw. NOBODY said a word about my safe call. When I pulled my partner over to talk to him he had this "deer in the headlights" look, so I decided to take charge of the situation. I told him that we were going to go with his out call, since it was what everyone saw. We could not count the run, because neither of us saw if the player scored prior to the out, although I think she probably did.

We called both coaches together to explain the call and what we were going to do. The DC was fine (duh!) the OC wanted his run, he kept saying "somebody had to see her score!" I finally told him..."Coach, we screwed up." He said..."OK, that's all I wanted to hear". The offense had already scored three runs that half-inning to go ahead 4-0, so that helped.

Looking back, I should have stuck with my safe call and allowed the run to score as that's what would have happened if my partner had not come up the line. However, I would not throw my partner under the bus on the field. That would come in the postgame discussion.

[IRISHMAFIA]

I have no problem with your diplomatic solution.

An argument could also be made that you didn't see the runner "not" score either. If you looked, even late, and the runner was beyond the plate......?

This is the type of thing where 10.3 comes into play, it can become a bit dicey.

BTW, you were both working too many games. This is where tournament hosts save money by using fewer umpires, but it often results in providing the teams with substandard officiating.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

BTW, you were both working too many games. This is where tournament hosts save money by using fewer umpires, but it often results in providing the teams with substandard officiating.

Sadly, more and more, this seems to be the norm with tournaments. I have worked as many as 8 games in one day without a break. (I have never worked for either that TD or that UIC again) I sincerely believe that no more than four games in a day should be officiated by one official. I would like to see more TD's and UIC's developing "morning" and "evening" crews to assure better officiating. But, with the numbers not being there I don't see it happening anywhere in the near future.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

BTW, you were both working too many games. This is where tournament hosts save money by using fewer umpires, but it often results in providing the teams with substandard officiating.

I can easily work six game in an all day tournament so long as I never have more than 3 in a row without a break.

I also don't see how overloading umpires saves money, unless the tournament is paying for travel, etc. There are the same number of umpires for each game...

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I can easily work six game in an all day tournament so long as I never have more than 3 in a row without a break.

I also don't see how overloading umpires saves money, unless the tournament is paying for travel, etc. There are the same number of umpires for each game...

Housing and food.

BTW, I don't believe an umpire can work 3 in a row and still be as fresh in the last game as s/he was in the first. That is unless the umpire is "pacing" themselves.

Due to emergency situations, I have had umpires go 3-4 deep and it drives me up a wall. I try to avoid that situation as much as possible as it isn't fair to the umpire or the teams. OTOH, I like to have umpires in reserve for the hot days. I am blessed with umpires who will give the extra effort when their comrades are having issues with the heat and it almost happens without me asking.