Never saw this before
 

R1 is waiting for the pitch and has back foot on bag and front foot is planted about 2ft on 2nd base side of infield...whilst waiting she is picking her back foot up and down in a "tapping" motion... kinda like timing the pitch. So im watching her and the DC is watching her from his bucket... So my question is: is this leaving early?
I didn't call anything on her as she made no motion to advance (and i wasn't sure if this was actually anything... I admit it :D) and it was a "no rules" "friendly" tournament per the UIC's pep talk in the change room and DC didn't object during the 4 pitches she did it. But, since we are there to arbitrate the rule(s) and I couldnt find anything in my case books specifically about this. let me know.

What advantage was gained?
 

Did her actions allow her to get to 2nd base any faster? I doubt I would call this.

Given your tournament situation and directive by the UIC, I'm not saying that it should have been called, but..................IN NSA, clearly an out.

NSA Rule 8, Section 8 - The baserunner is out: u. When the baserunner(s) fails to keep contact with their base until a legally pitched ball leaves the pitcher's hand. The ball is dead, "NO PITCH" is declared and the baserunner(s) is declared out."

Yes, the plural leads to some discussion (typically poorly worded NSA rules), but the situation is on point and clear - out.

I've seen NCAA umps watching like a hawk, when the runner is just shifting weight from foot to foot, for a break in contact with the bag.

I see what you're describing quite often, if anything I'll brush dirt off the bag & mention that she has to maintain contact- even then it's only if a DC has an issue with it.

The only time you'd make that call would be if R1 is on 3B in the bottom of the 7th and represents the tying run.

Oh there it is... the wink/rollseyes/grin/eek. It's tiny, but I think I see it.

I try to be subtle... ;)

"friendly" tournament, no; otherwise, yes
 

Given that the UIC mentioned that the tournament was of a "friendly" nature, and I've worked some of these, some subtle things might be overlooked. A lot of times, coaches/teams are trying out players at different positions and these players might not know the nuances of the game. If I'm working a scrimmage between two travel teams, I'll ask the coaches at the start how they want the game officiated. Sometimes they want free substitution, or a little leeway forsomeone who's pitching for the first time. As long as they both agree, I'm amenable.

So in that environment, a little leniency might be appropriate. Given that, I've also seen coaches go ballistic on what they've perceived as a bad call or rule interpretation they didn't like. These coaches are obviously wound a bit too tight and forget the purpose of the tournament.

In any case, the ASA rule is:

(Fast Pitch) When the runner fails to keep contact with the base to which the
runner is entitled until the ball leaves the pitcher’s hand.
EFFECT - Sections 8 R-S: The ball is dead, “no pitch” is declared when
applicable, and the runner is out.

Note that it doesn't mention anything about advantage being gained.

Doing a 12-14 year old rec league last spring, [one umpire games] the runner at second base didn't return after a pitch. Once the pitcher had the ball in the circle the runner still stood there. I waited, but once the pitcher took the pitcher's plate and began her delivery, I called the runner out. Offensive coach whined "You're gonna call THAT??!!" "Yes, coach. Now explain the rule to your baserunner."

Ted

You waited too long. Since it was a rec league, I might have given her a 1001, 1002 count from the point I highlighted above, but if she's not moving after that, she's out. Waiting until the windup begins is definitely too long.

If a baserunner is shuffling her feet, positioning her foot on the bag, etc., calling that because she "fails to keep contact" is OOO IMO (with the exception I noted a couple of posts above! ;)).

Well, knowing that a lot of the girls at that level are still learning the game, I wanted to give her the chance to return back to the base. Clearly, she didn't know the rule, and none of her coaches told her to get back, so they either didn't notice or didn't want others [including the umpire] to be aware of it.

Had the pitcher dallied about some, like many do at that age, the runner might have remembered to get back on the base. That clearly wasn't happening, so she was going to be called out. The pitcher getting right back on the pitcher's plate facilitated a quicker call.

In the same league, a playoff game ended when the batter grounded out and saw the throw sail over F3's head. The runner took a couple of quick steps toward second base and saw that the ball made a quick carom off the fence post [not out of play] and bounced right back to F3. Defensive coach is yelling for F3 to tag the runner, who is now casually walking back to 1B from short RF. Out, game over, season ends for that team. All the coaches and most of the parents knew what had happened, and most regretted that one team's season had to end that way. All who spoke to me after the game agreed it was the right call.

Some lessons learned are harder to take than others.

Ted

"But Blue, how can you end a game with a call like that?!?!" or another one of my favorites, "How can you make that call in such an important game?" ;)

"But Blue, how can you end a game with a call like that?!?!"

"'Cuz that's when it happened."

or another one of my favorites,

"How can you make that call in such an important game?"

"Because it's important to make the correct call no matter how important the game."

"Time!" Run over to bag and while smoothing out the slight undulations in the dirt, state very quietly, "I have to call you out if you're tapping your foot up and down and it leaves the bag."

Because no advantage was gained? Half the obvious significant look back rule violations don't have any advantage gained. If the girl at first leaves clearly early with the bases loaded and the other runners aren't going are you going to say not out because she didn't get an advantage?

As to the overall question, let me pose an alternative violation of the rule that I've been ignoring to make sure you all agree I should. The runner is at third. After the pitch she goes back to third where she stands just outside the diamond without touching the base while talking to her coach. She then slides her foot over to the bag. I've never figured it was in the spirit of the rule so I've never done anything. Everybody okay with that?
________
LIVE SEX

Nope. I have an out. If a runner from first gets enough of a head start she might be able to score. Sounds like an advantage to me.
How long is she standing off the bag? Not something I would usually worry about. Maybe if she's taking a long time to get her foot back over you could remind her quietly.

Young:
I'm with Seth here. In case 1, ring it. Call that out. Is it any difference if it's R1 on 3B, or R3 on 1B? Nope. Ring it.

In case 2, not so much with Seth. Give her the "one thousand one, one thousand two" and ring it. If she and her coach are dumb enough to miss that obvious part of the rule, they deserve to be taught a lesson with the out. Ring it.

I can go with that, too. I don't know that I've seen runners doing this.

I have stopped doing any coaching about rules, but sometimes bring something to a coach's attention (like very new players and some IP).
My reasons are that it is a disadvantage to the other team, it is intruding on the coach's job, and the player or coach might think I am also helping the other team more significantly.

Where is applying rules based on advantage defined in the books? I only learned it in basketball and soccer.

I told the coach (after batter stepped out of box, hit ball) "How can I NOT make a call like that in a game like this?"


A game is a game is a game!

No where in any rule book does it say for violations, "was there an advantage gained".

Runner left early, but she didn't steal, so no advantage, don't call?
Pitcher stepped way outside the "24", pitch was a ball, no advantage, don't call?

You can go on and on. Whether an advantage was gained or not, has no bearing
on whether or not to inforce a violation.

That depends on how slow the coach has to speak to get her to understand the directions. :cool: And how do you suppose I'm going to quietly tell the runner on third to get back on the base from behind the plate?
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Park Royal 1 Pattaya

Speaking ASA

Actually, the violation isn't for "leaving early", but failing to keep contact with the base prior to the (FP) ball leaving the pitcher's hand or (SP) the ball reaching the plate or touching the ground.

Okay, so you use "in the spirit of the rule" here huh? Why is applicable here but not in the OP? What is the spirit of the rule applicable to the OP? You're going to call a girl out because she's a millimeter off the base? Why would you even "see" this?

I'm not talking about a millimeter off the base I'm talking about distance I can see from my behind the plate.
________
Cumalot4u

I'm relatively new to the dark side, but my mentors have always told me that if I call a runner out for leaving early [steal attempt, as opposed to the look back violations] that it had better be "way obvious".

I've probably made that call half a dozen times in 3 years, some during 1 umpire games, but only on the runner at 2B. Can't claim that a runner from 1B or 3B in a one umpire game would be "way obvious".

Also made some calls related to the look back violation.

During a tournament [2 umpires] w/ runners on first & third, I was keeping an eye on the runner at 3B for a possible bunt play. So the runner at first takes off on the pitch, and she's safe at second. Defensive coach went nuts about her leaving early, 'cuz no one steals on his catcher. They went on to lose the game and he was still railing about that call and how we cost them the [elimination] game. HP ump [veteran guy that's been around for years] finally told him to put a sock in it and that he was reporting the coach to the tournament director, and they wouldn't be invited back again next year. All because I was peeking in the wrong direction. Oh, well...next game!

Ted

I put it like this: the LBR is not a "gotcha rule." I don't look for runner's leaving a microsecond early, etc.

In your 1st and 3rd situation, I recognize that it is not at all unusual for R2 to attempt a steal hoping to draw the throw to try to score R1. So, I'll try to keep R2 in my peripheral vision. But, fundamentally, your priorities were correct.

All right, that clears it up. I would probably have an out here, then.

Tom's got it right on the priorities. If you are watching R2 in your periphial vision from the C position, it had better be very obvious that she left early to make that call.

Remember that the coach has the luxury of focusing only on R2 without having to worry about R1, the pitcher's feet or delivery, or any other of the BU responsibilities.

You can also tell him that if he feels that strongly about it, talk to the tournament director about increasing the entry fees in order to pay for three umpires on each game! :cool:

Agree all the way around.

In a "no rules" friendly tournament, you would have no business calling this unless you were wanting to stir up some crap. I would mention it to them anyway that they might want to rethink how they are coaching their runners for games that count - much like not enforcing illegal pitches in a "no rules" friendly venue.

In any other situation. if you see daylight between the contact foot and the base, this should be called.

:rolleyes:


No you dont see or call this.

Exactly. Except it's nor, not or in this case. :D

I agree with this on one condition. That the "no rules" is not a perception, but something that has been published in advance and the TD will back up the umpire crew when a coach starts whining about rules not being enforced.

Not sure what the deal is with you dakota and irish focusing on the grammar police stuff lately... it's pretty lame. I'll keep you guys pretty busy though, cuz I could care less.

Bottom line, if your gonna call something so lame, save everyone from your lameness and look right at the girl and say "I'm gonna call you for leaving early if you keep tapping your foot". :rolleyes: You should be embarrassed for saying it, but I realize some umpires have no shame about such things.

At least give her a chance to fix it.

I think you meant 'couldn't care less'.

:p

I always focus on the writing (grammar, etc.); I just rarely post about it. I can't help it. I'm edgumacated. I thought Mike typing "panty waste" was pretty funny in a sophomoric sort of way.

And, if I pointed out all of the lameness in your postings over the years, my post count would be easily tripled.

lol!

Whats mike excuse then?

Irregardless, its not my main focus! :D

Oh come on, Wade. You shouldn't lick a gift horse in the mouth. For all intensive purposes, they're trying to help you.

ROFL

I dont need them no more, the Obama Messiah is gonna take care of me.

I think you meant "you're going to." :D

I think you meant "intents and purposes." :D

I don't know... Some of those coaches do get pretty intense. ;)

Just except the fact that some people are trying to help you! :eek:

when i want your opinion i'll axe you for it ok?

Not "in tents and porpoises?"

Though what a tarp and a cetacean have to do with each other, I just don't know?

Might be a Seattle thing.

Oh, I know what I meant.

Know, Know, its eye no watt eye mint. :p

Teh!
All your Obamics are belong to me !!!11