Wheelchair coaching - Page 3

greymule · #31 (**permalink**) Wed May 08, 2002, 11:56am

But you must admit, Roger, that horror stories abound, and tort reform has been much discussed over the past decade.

Moron got hurt trying to lower a flag, sued, and under joint and several liability, a company that did not even manufacture the flag in question had to pay big bucks.

Don't be surprised that many Americans have little faith in the courts, or at least, as Jefferson said, want to stay as far from them as possible.

Roger Greene · #32 (**permalink**) Wed May 08, 2002, 12:04pm

Like most "horror stories" you fail to hear all the details.

The American Justice System is not perfect, but I would defend the English/American based skystem over any other in history.

How many of you would wish to be tried under Mulla Omar's system?

Roger Greene

greymule · #33 (**permalink**) Wed May 08, 2002, 12:57pm

And so would I defend it, and I wouldn't want to live ANYPLACE else. But we have to do better than find it superior to the Taliban system. I don't think ours is a great system with few little flaws. It's a great system with serious flaws, and notably in the tort area.

The details of the flag case were presented quite fully in the Wall Street Journal about ten years ago. Justice did not prevail. It is of course true that the media often sensationalize court decisions that upon close examination don't seem so crazy. But how about the guy who was awarded a quarter of a BILLION dollars when his child was killed because HE ran a stop sign, a fact that couldn't be revealed in court? No evidence whatsoever that any defect in the vehicle even existed, much less played a part. Don't fret, said the system's defenders, another court might reduce the award.

And don't get me started on the criminal system. I've seen too many utter absurdities firsthand. Yes, I would far rather be tried in the U.S. than anywhere else, certainly if I were guilty.

So let's start a legal forum.

[Edited by greymule on May 8th, 2002 at 01:01 PM]

omar23456 · #34 (**permalink**) Tue May 14, 2002, 05:24pm

Standby everyone. We just got an answer from our great State High School fearless ???? leaders. Guess what? your right, they can understand our concern for the safety of the players BUT we must take every consideration into effect and allow the coach on the field. So the gain of one is over the possible injury to many. It was a nice three page letter with a lot of song and dance to it but the ADA law will win out and they do not want any part of that. SOOOOOOOO everyone standby and get ready for any type of mobility device on the field. Go time for the umpires to invent a mobile rocking chair or golf cart for the field. We have not given up on this yet and are still trying to do something. Thanks for all your help and comments.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. · #35 (**permalink**) Tue May 14, 2002, 08:34pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Roger Greene

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

When a player gets hurt because of a coach, in a wheelchair, is in the way, I can assure you that, the only persons who will be held accountable for that player's injuries will be the umpires on the field. Even though U.S. law says that the umpires must let that coach, in the wheelchair, the courts will no doubt also rule that the umpires know the hazards better than anybody of having a wheelchair bound coach on the field, and will hold the umpires and only the umpires accountable for that player's injuries.

Mark,
I beg to disagree. Following the law and the applicable rules is generally pretty good protection in any type suit. (The main reason I never allow a batter to warm up in the opposing team's on deck circle.)

I am a Judicial Official. I am called upon to rule on tort cases as part of that profession.

Roger Greene [/B]

You may be legally correct Your Honor, but there is alway jury nulification. If I were a betting man, I would bet dollars to donuts that if umpires let a coach in a wheelchair on the field and a player gets hurt, the jury will find against the umpires for letting the coach on the field. And no matter what the law says, the umpires responsibility is to the safety of the players and the to indulge the stupidity of a coach in a wheelchair.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. · #36 (**permalink**) Tue May 14, 2002, 08:39pm

In March, I was an alternate juror in a liablity case: a neurosurgeon was being sued by a former patient. The jury spent less than 45 minutes before finding for the neurosurgeon. Fortunately for the neurosurgeon, the eight members and two alternates were all college graduates and were able to understand the complexities of the case and it indeed was complex. But the case was a perfect example of why I believe that tort cases involving the scientific professions should be tried in special courts where there is peer revue instead of a jury of people not learned in the science involved.

IRISHMAFIA · #37 (**permalink**) Tue May 14, 2002, 08:42pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

You may be legally correct Your Honor, but there is alway jury nulification. If I were a betting man, I would bet dollars to donuts that if umpires let a coach in a wheelchair on the field and a player gets hurt, the jury will find against the umpires for letting the coach on the field. And no matter what the law says, the umpires responsibility is to the safety of the players and the to indulge the stupidity of a coach in a wheelchair.

I'll take that bet. Of course, I have more faith in a judge than jury.

Gulf Coast Blue · #38 (**permalink**) Tue May 14, 2002, 09:36pm

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. quotes.......

But the case was a perfect example of why I believe that tort cases involving the scientific professions should be tried in special courts where there is peer revue instead of a jury of people not learned in the science involved.
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Rules Interpreter &
Instructional Chairman
Wood Co. Bkb. Off. Assn.
Bowling Green, Ohio

As a basketball official Mark.........you of all people know this better than everyone........

Basketball fans are the MOST ignorant.......rowdy.......ignorant.......vocal... ...incessant.......ignorant.......loudest......... .ignorant......(Did I say Ignorant?)........of all sports fans out there..........grin

I would still hide behind whatever my State Association told me to do........

They are after all.......the ones with the "deep pockets"...........I don't have anything they want........grin

Joel

bluezebra · #39 (**permalink**) Wed May 15, 2002, 01:20am

Remember, any civil action may be appealed.

Bob

omar23456 · #40 (**permalink**) Thu May 16, 2002, 07:50pm

Guess What happened?
Today I was assigned the game with the coach in the wheel chair and it was a divisional playoff game and I was assigned the plate. Prior to the game I had briefed my other two partners on how we would hand this game. So when we got to the field and called for coaches and captains he never showed up. I asked what happen to him, being very polite, and was told he had fallen out of his wheelchair when he was in the yard and broke his leg and had to go to the hospital. I guess the blue in the sky was looking over me and I never had to do or say anything, except I hope he is alright and hope everything will be OK for him.
Could you imagine if this had happened on the field? I think we would of had every lawyer in the world looking for a piece of this action. Its not over yet if they win the game next week he will be back on the field in a cast and in a wheelchair.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. · #41 (**permalink**) Fri May 17, 2002, 07:41am

Quote:

Originally posted by Gulf Coast Blue
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. quotes.......

But the case was a perfect example of why I believe that tort cases involving the scientific professions should be tried in special courts where there is peer revue instead of a jury of people not learned in the science involved.
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Rules Interpreter &
Instructional Chairman
Wood Co. Bkb. Off. Assn.
Bowling Green, Ohio

As a basketball official Mark.........you of all people know this better than everyone........

Basketball fans are the MOST ignorant.......rowdy.......ignorant.......vocal... ...incessant.......ignorant.......loudest......... .ignorant......(Did I say Ignorant?)........of all sports fans out there..........grin

I would still hide behind whatever my State Association told me to do........

They are after all.......the ones with the "deep pockets"...........I don't have anything they want........grin

Joel

It would be impossible to hide behind a StateHSAA. The collapse of the Hyatt Regency in Kansas City in the late 1970's is a good example. The structural engineers in that case said that their designs were changed by the steel fabricator and construction company and their contract did not call for them to inspect the work. That defense was unsuccessful. Two lost their license to practice engineering in Missouri and they lost the law suit against them for damages.

Skahtboi · #42 (**permalink**) Fri May 17, 2002, 08:56pm

Quote:

Originally posted by omar23456
Its not over yet if they win the game next week he will be back on the field in a cast and in a wheelchair.

Just make sure that everything is properly padded!

Scott

Elaine "Lady Blue" · #43 (**permalink**) Fri May 17, 2002, 11:38pm

No offense, Mark, but aren't you just a little paranoid for an umpire? Or anal? If I were as afraid as you seem to be, I would quit umpiring and my regular job and work from home where it is MUCH safer! JMHO Some folks on this board may appreciate your comments, but I feel like I'm being scolded by an over protective parent! Stay where you are, don't move to Atlanta!

omar23456 · #44 (**permalink**) Tue May 28, 2002, 03:46pm

The final chapter for this story, at least for this year, has come to an end. The wheelchair coaches team made the playoff and in the first round (regional playoff) he showed up in a wheelchair and in a cast (broken leg). When the game began he stayed in the dugout and stayed there the entire game. As the game proceeded his team lost and thus we do not have to deal with this problem any more this season. I do not know if someone talked to him or he came to his senses. But remember we have next year, so maybe by then there will be something in the rule book to cover this and anything else about mobility devices. Once again I thank you for all your advise and help.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. · #45 (**permalink**) Tue May 28, 2002, 08:49pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Elaine "Lady Blue"
No offense, Mark, but aren't you just a little paranoid for an umpire? Or anal? If I were as afraid as you seem to be, I would quit umpiring and my regular job and work from home where it is MUCH safer! JMHO Some folks on this board may appreciate your comments, but I feel like I'm being scolded by an over protective parent! Stay where you are, don't move to Atlanta!

Its not a matter of being paranoid or anal. It is called due diligence. As officials we are expected to know better than anyone else dangers a coach in a wheelchair on the playing field can cause. Officiating an athletic contest and designing building structures are very similiar activities. When it comes to the safety of players in an athletic contest, I apply the same guiding prinicples that I use in designing buildings. To quote Spock: "The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few."

A wheelchair bound coach who insists on being on the playing field is not different than the client who wants his structural engineer to design a structure that is in direct conflict with good engineering judgement. It is the responsibility of the engineer to tell his client that now matter how much he wants something, he is not going to get it because it violates the principles of good engineering judgement.