Does the run score?
 

The following play was posted in the Softball Umpiring Discussion Forum on the NFHS website. I would like to entertain fast pitch rulings from NFHS, NCAA, ASA (including ISA rules), and USSSA.


Bases loaded with two (2) outs when B4 draws a walk. R1 saunters down the base path from third base towards home plate. R2 runs from second base, tags third base, and makes the turn at third base and takes a few steps toward home plate. F2, who still has not thrown the ball back to F1 sees that R2 has rounded third base and fires the ball to F5 who tags R2 before R2 can return to third base. F5 tag of R2 occurs before R1 has touched home plate.

Assuming that R1 does touch home plate, does the run count.


It is my humble opinion that R1's run counts.


MTD, Sr.

Since when have you ever had a humble opinion? :D

In ASA:
That's not a force out, it's a timing play. No run scores.

ASA 2007 Case Play 8.6-1

SRW:

I have a few questions:


1) Was B4 awarded first base when she drew the walk?

2) B4's walk forced R3, R2, and R1 to advance one base. Are these single base advances considered awarded bases?

3) If R3, R2, and R1's advancement of one base are considered awarded bases, then wouldn't R1's run score even if she touches home plate after R2 is tagged out?

MTD, Sr.

Case Play 8.6-1 does not address the issue of the OP play. In 8.6-1, the other runners touch their bases and the runner who is out is out before reaching the awarded base (for walking off the field). The runs do not score in this case play because the 3rd out of the inning was a force out / before BR reached 1B.

Can a timing play out nullify a run from an awarded base?

ASA rule 5-5-B-2 saysThis was prior to the lead runner touching home plate.

In NFHS it counts
 

I don't have my case book handy, but there is a case play with this exact scenario and the run scores, because R1 was awarded home on the walk.

Speaking ASA

Yes. 8.1.C

The award is to the batter. That award forced and protected those runners only to the next base. 8.5.A

It would IF they were awarded bases, which, IMO, they are not. No run is scored based on 5.5.B.2

There is an NFHS case play for this scenario, but I can't find an ASA one. Here is the NFHS case play:In NFHS, the run scores.

That's the case play i was referring to
 

Dakota, that's the one I was thinking of. I didn't make it clear, but I meant an NFHS case play.

Just out of curiosity, does the NFHS rule state that the runner is actually awarding runners a base when another player is walked, or is it an assumption supported by the case play?

I don't care, just curious as to the wording.

Its implied in the index. Under Awards it directs you to 2-63-1 and 2-63-2, which define Walk and Intentional Walk. And also in 8-4-3,it says "A runner is entitled to advance without liability to be put out when forced to vacate a base because the batter was awarded first base".

I've yet to find where it says in black and white that a walk is an award. It is however heavily implied by the case play and rule book.

Except for the implications above, the NFHS rule book does not directly say the OTHER runners forced to advance are awarded their bases. Heck, the NFHS book does not even call the base on balls itself an awarded base (again, except by inference as noted above). The NFHS Rule 8-1-1-c for fast pitch (fourth ball called by the umpire) only says the batter becomes a BR. It does not use the word "award" for fast pitch (it does for the intentional BOB for slow pitch).

We're not "awarding" R1, R2, or R3 anything... the only one we're "awarding" is the BR 1B. The others are forced to vacate, and are protected to the next base by rule.

I have a hard time in either rule set (even though NFHS specifically shows it via the case play) that the runners are "awarded" the next base.

i.e.: If we had a runner on 2B only, we don't "award" them the next base ... they're entitled to go there without liability "if forced."

I started to disagree with Mark on the NFHS board, absed on the wording of the rule, but discovered before I posted that the case play states the run scores.

The definition of a walk in NFHS 2-63-1 says the batter is awarded first. The baserunning rule 8-4-3(a) says that runners forced to advance as a result of the batter walking are "entitled to advance without liability to be put out". That stops short of making the advance bases awards; and since the ball is alive, I would argue that advances, even if entitled without jeopardy, are then timing plays.

But, MS says otherwise, and until or unless she changes the ruling or the wording of rule, they will continue to contradict.

NCAA uses similar language, so I would presume it also does not consider the entitlement to advance to be an award.

I understand a walk is an award to the batter, but not the runners. If it were, a lone runner on 3B would score on a walk or HBP, and we all know that isn't gonna happen :rolleyes:

That's why I was curious of the wording.

For as much as I know, ASA may want the same ruling. My supposition is based upon the rules available.

"without liability to be put out" does not mean "without liability to be declared out"

NCAA uses similar language, so I would presume it also does not consider the entitlement to advance to be an award.

I think that runners are indeed "awarded" bases to which they are forced when the batter is awarded a base on balls.

Example in FP: R1 on 2B, R2 on 1B, 1 out. R2 runs on the 3-2 pitch, but R1 misses the sign and does not run. Ball 4 to batter. R2 rounds 2B and passes R1. R2 is declared out. R1, however, still goes to 3B even though she is no longer forced and the ball is live. Thus, this is an award.

Example in FP: Bases loaded, 1 out. Ball 4 to batter. Batter runs directly into the dugout and is declared out. The other 3 runners are no longer forced, but they still advance to the bases they were awarded.

I had an illustrative play a few years ago:

R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B, 1 out. B3 hits a liner down the LF line, not too deep. R1 takes a few steps toward home, and R2 tags at 2B. F7 makes a nice catch and quickly fires the ball to F5 in an attempt to get the returning R1. As R1 returns to 3B, he covers his head with his arms to defend himself from the hard throw. The throw gets away and goes into the dugout. I (BU) award both runners home. R2, seeing the ball go into DBT and unaware that R1 is still on 3B asking what happened, passes R1.

Both R1 and R2 were permitted to advance to home without liability to be put out. However, R2 was declared out for the third out, so R1 cannot score, even though he had been awarded home.

Nor does it mean award

Quote:

NCAA uses similar language, so I would presume it also does not consider the entitlement to advance to be an award.

Or the rulings are based upon the order in which the different events (walk and then passing the runner).

Why would you call a runner out for passing when the ball was dead?

This is a messy situation. It sounds like (since ASA does not have a case directly on point like NFHS) that the runners are ENTITLED to advance without liability, but are not REQUIRED to, if that makes sense. IOW, what if in the OP, R2 advanced to 3B and R1 just walked into the dugout instead of going to home? Inning over, R1 does not score? So it seems that R1 does not automatically GET a run by virtue of 8.5.A, she is entitled to advance without being PUT out, but she still has to fulfill her baserunning obligations correctly (touching home in my example, or touching home before something else happens to end the inning in the OP. And in the OP, the inning did not end by any of the runners being put out while they were entitled to advance without liability; the inning certainly did not end by R1 being put out, so the inning-ending out would not violate her entitlement to advance without liability.

Seems like if R1 is dumb enough to hang around the basepath long enough, there are a number of things that could occur that would end the inning before she got her run by crossing home.

Just thinking aloud, trying to see if I got it straight. All periods in the preceding sentences may be replaced with question marks.

Why would you call a runner out for passing when the ball was dead?

Because it's the correct ruling. 8-7-D does not, as 8-7-E does for physical assist, stipulate that the ball must be live.

8.7.D When a runner physically passes a preceding runner before that runner has been called out. If this was the third out of the inning, any runs scored prior to the out for passing a preceding runner.
Effect: The ball is live. The runner who passes the preceding runner is out.

RS #39 ...the ball remains live.

While I agree, there is no specific wording stating the ball must be live at the time of the passing, the rules do state that the ball IS live or REMAINS live. Well, that cannot be if the ball has been declared dead. If a ball goes out of play and the umpire sees a runner pass another, s/he doesn't automatically declare the ball live at that point.

I'm aware of the statements in "Effect" and RS39. I believe that ASA's statements "the ball is live" and "the ball remains live" would be more accurately worded "if the ball is live at the time of the infraction, it remains live." Otherwise, why insert "while the ball is live" into 8-7-E?

If a ball goes out of play and the umpire sees a runner pass another, s/he doesn't automatically declare the ball live at that point.

Obviously not. I didn't say that a dead ball becomes live when a runner passes another. The umpire does declare the passing runner out, though.

R1 on 1B. Batter hits a low liner that caroms off F3's foot and into DBT. BR subsequently passes R1 between 1B and 2B.

I'm calling the BR out.

If memory serves, the ASA case book (unfortunately not accessible to me at the moment) gives at least one example of a play in which a runner is called out for passing another runner when the ball is dead.

This is a reasonable understanding... that is, they are saying the infraction is not a dead ball infraction (like interference). The ball remains live so the defense can continue to make plays. I would not necessarily take this to mean that the ball must be live for the rule to be in effect.

HOWEVER, there are some obvious (to me, anyway) cases where you would NOT make this call during a dead ball. Foul ball, for example. Runners are in the process of slowing/stopping to return to their bases after a foul ball and the trailing runner passes the lead runner. Out? I don't think so.

Speaking USSSA (back to the OP)
 

NFHS CASE BOOK
8.1.1 SITUATION F: With two outs, the bases loaded and a three-and-two count on B6, the next pitch is a wild pitch. R1 begins advancing to home. R2, on second base, is off with the pitch. She rounds third base, but is caught off the base by an excellent throw by F2 for the third out. R1 had not touched home when R2 was tagged out at third. RULING: R1 was awarded home as soon as the fourth ball was declared. Consequently, as soon as R1 touches the plate, her run counts. (8-4-3a Effect)

USSSA 2007 CASE BOOK
BALL FOUR
SITUATION C: With two outs, the bases loaded and a three-and-two count on B6, the next pitch is a wild
pitch. R1 begins advancing to home. R2, on second base, is off with the pitch. She rounds third base, but is
caught off the base by an excellent throw by F6 for the third out. R1 had not touched home when R2 was
tagged out at third.
RULING: R1 became entitled to home as soon as ball four was declared. Consequently, as soon as R1
touches the plate, her run counts. (9-15-D-4)


Looks like U-trip copied the NFHS rule verbatim, except for the use of the change of "was awarded home" to "became entitled to" in the last sentence.

Additionally, I think you need this rule to deal with some potentially weird situations.

Runner on 1st. Ball is popped up to the first baseman. Runner tags and br makes it down to first with the ball in the air. F9 loses the ball in the sun. When it falls the fielder thinks that if he hustles he's got a play at second and in his exuberance throws into the third base dugout.

Dead ball, runners to second and third. Now suppose it's a close game and the runner on first is faster so the coach sends him to third instead of the other runner. This is the rule that prevents such a travesty, isn't it?
________
Children prilosec

ASA 2007 Case plays on runner passing while the ball is dead (both are home runs)...

Thinking about this a bit more...

There are two kinds of dead ball (this is my invention, so bear with me):

1) Those where the base running rules are in effect, and
2) Those where the base running rules are suspended.

In the first category are home runs and any situation where bases are awarded.

In the second category are foul balls, offensive and defensive conferences, and your general time out (F2 and F1 confer, that sort of thing).

In the first category, 8-7-D applies, but not in the second.

I'll admit I hijacked this one, but let's have a little more fun with this. Put down whichever rule book you are reading and think about this.

What is the difference of a runner passing another on a foul ball and a blocked or overthrown ball?

Remember, we've all been taught than once the ball is ruled dead, nothing is supposed to happen. Pitchers cannot pitch, batter cannot hit, runners cannot advance, nor be put out. Any rulings involving the pitch, hit, running of bases or execution of an out which occurs during a dead-ball period is supposed to be base upon the occurences prior to the ball being declared dead.

So, if a B2 passes R1 at first on a ball which is heading over the fence, s/he is out if the ball is declared fair, but not out if the ball is declared foul. What's the difference if the act occured while the fly ball was still in play? Is the runner only ruled out if the RF reaches over the fence in foul territory and makes the catch? Is this a retroactive type of call? What if the BR thinks it is a foul ball, turns left around R1 on the base heading back to the plate only to have the wind bring it back into play? Is that runner allowed to retreat back behind R1 to what and see if the ball is fair? Okay, that's a little TWP, but not beyond the realm of possibility.

In certain levels of SP, the runners are not required to run the bases. However, if there is a pass during the flight of the HR ball, is that runner out even though the rule states that they are not required to run the bases? The only exception noted are appeals and passing a runner is not an appeal. Again, the passing occured during live ball play, not after the ball became dead.

Let's assume the runners cannot pass another runner on awarded bases. When does the award kick in? Is it automatic as soon as the ball enters DBT? Am I out of line if I say that most, if not all, organizations direct their umpires to hesitate in making awards until after runners have been given the opportunity to complete any baserunning tasks that may be available to them? Along those lines, would not the award be an award only when the umpire announces it? If that were the case, what difference would it make if one runner happened to step past another during a dead ball period as long as it is corrected prior to touching the next base?

Please note, I'm not disagreeing with anyone's view, offered ruling, opinion or the given interpretations, just talking aloud about how they came to be.

I think the theoretical questions Mike poses are good ones. There are certainly dead ball situations in which nothing can happen, and there are dead ball situations in which runners have to meet certain responsibilities. And I know that there are plays for which I would not follow the letter of the law.

To my knowledge, ASA is alone in using the time of the award as a distinguishing point. For example: Batter hits a ball off the fence, misses 1B, touches 2B, and is on his way to 3B when the throw from the outfield appears to be in time to get him. But the throw bounces through and hits DBT a moment before the BR slides into 3B. The umpire awards home. In ASA, that runner can return to 2B, correct his error at 1B, and then take his award. This is because the runner did not advance to the next base after the award was made. (This way of handling such a play is relatively new in ASA.) In OBR, he cannot correct his error, because he advanced to the next base (3B) after the ball became dead. (In Fed, he cannot correct his error, but for a different reason: when the ball became dead, he was on or beyond the base in advance of the base where he committed the error.)

So, if a B2 passes R1 at first on a ball which is heading over the fence, s/he is out if the ball is declared fair, but not out if the ball is declared foul.

That would be the logical ruling, but in fact, in ASA, if B2 passes R1 before the ball becomes foul (ie, while it is still in the air and live), B2 is out. A few years ago, I submitted that play on this forum merely to assure myself that ASA's ruling was the same as OBR's (foul ball, passing is irrelevant). However, the answer I got was that B2 was out, so I checked with ASA, and to my surprise they said the same thing: the runner is out if the passing occurs while the ball is still in the air; otherwise, it's merely a foul ball.

In certain levels of SP, the runners are not required to run the bases. However, if there is a pass during the flight of the HR ball, is that runner out even though the rule states that they are not required to run the bases? The only exception noted are appeals and passing a runner is not an appeal. Again, the passing occured during live ball play, not after the ball became dead.

ASA told me that, even where the runners don't have to run the bases, the runner passing is out if the passing occurs before the ball hits over the fence. I was not aware that appeals were allowed. (What would an appeal be for? Missing 1B while the ball was still in the air?)

However, I've learned that what ASA tells you is not necessarily absolute. I was UIC at an ASA regional qualifier this summer, and I spent a lot of time with a high official of ASA, watching the mechanics of the umpires and discussing rules. According to this fellow, several questions on this year's ASA test were not only misleading, but just plain wrong, including the play in which the BR accidentally kicks an uncaught third strike that had bounced off F2 and out in front of the plate. I suggested that the play where the defense can't get an advantageous fourth out on a runner who didn't score also falls into that category, and he said it might. Apparently one of the people constructing questions had misinterpreted some rules, and the questions weren't given a final and authoritative review. (How true is all this? Who knows?)

Don't know to whom you were speaking, but the council members disagree with him. I have proposed rule changes to cover both situations over the pass couple of years and both were soundly squashed in committee and I'm not going to put a hold on a vote for which I have no chance of getting the consensus changed.

So, the test probably wasn't wrong, this individual just doesn't agree with the answers.;)

Interesting.

Funny thing was, this official posed a question that apparently came from his recent rules discussion with other ASA people: Uncaught strike 3 bounces off F2 and rolls in front of the plate. BR starts to run to 1B and inadvertently kicks the ball into DBT. What base do you award the BR?

When I answered that this year's test posed practically the identical situation, and the answer was that the batter was out for INT, he told me that the test question was wrong. So I agreed that I didn't like the INT ruling and said I would award the batter 1B only. He said that I was correct, because the interpretation was that a pitch, not a thrown ball, had gone out of play.

At your next meeting, see what you can do about that play where the BR deliberately clotheslines F3 after the runner from 3B crosses the plate.

I would recommend (1) a stipulation that if a runner or BR commits INT before the BR reaches 1B, all runners return TOP, with the runner closest to home still out on deliberate INT, and (2) a runner who has crossed the plate before INT on a fly ball should still be considered the runner closest to home.

NCAA:

Score the run.

6.1.2 2) With two outs, score any run
in which the runner is awarded home during a live ball but a trailing
runner is tagged out before touching home plate.
A.R. 6.1.2: Bases loaded, two outs, batter earns a base on balls. Runner from third dawdles on her way home while the runner from second aggressively advances to third, rounds the base and is tagged out. The out at third happens before the runner from third touches home. RULING: Score the run on the live-ball award.

Nothing.

That is what the discussion is about. The casebook plays and interpretations are applying protection designed for those runners who are "awarded" bases. My question would be where in the rule book does it state that all runners are awarded a base when the batter walks.

Mike,

Reread my rule quote from the NCAA rule book. I didn't put the entire rule in there, only the part that applied to this discussion. It refers to the exact situation, bases loaded, base on balls, runner going from 2B to 3B put out after rounding 3B before runner from 3B touches home.

With two outs, score any run in which the runner is awarded home during a live ball but a trailing runner is tagged out before touching home plate.

Again this is NCAA rules

You are still missing the point, NCAA or any other org. Where does it say R1 is "awarded" 1 base when B4 receives a walk?

OK, here is the entire rule including the AR.

6.1.2 One run shall be scored each time a runner legally touches first,
second and third bases and home plate before the third out of an inning.
Exceptions: 1) The runner placed on second base to begin the tiebreaker
is exempt from touching first base; and 2) With two outs, score any run
in which the runner is awarded home during a live ball but a trailing
runner is tagged out before touching home plate.
A.R. 6.1.2: Bases loaded, two outs, batter earns a base on balls. Runner from third dawdles on her way home while the runner from second aggressively advances to third, rounds the base and is tagged out. The out at third happens before the runner from third touches home. RULING: Score the run on the live-ball award.

Okay, that's fine and I understand the approved ruling, but I'm still waiting on my answer to the question: Where does it say in any rule book that R1 is "awarded" 1 base when B4 receives a walk?

The batter...
 

...is awarded 1st base...I think we are all agreed on that. The question now becomes are the runners "awarded" the next base? If they runners are also "awarded" the next base then the run would score regardless of when the out was made.

My opinion (absent a ruling by National Staff Members) on this would be that the run would score but you'd have the runner out on the tag. Its going to be a tough sell regardless of which way you go.

ASA 8-5 Runners are entitled to advance without liability to be put out.

A. When forced to vacate a base because the batter was awarded a base on balls.

EFFECT (Fast Pitch) The ball remains alive unless it is blocked. Any runner affected is ENTITLED TO ONE BASE.


Webster definition of award: something that is conferred or bestowed especially on the basis of MERIT or need

Webster definition of entitled: to furnish with proper grounds for seeking or CLAIMING something

If that the ASA effect in 8-5-A isn't an award what is it? :confused:

NCAA page 169

"12.7 AWARDS

In addition to to any special ground rules established, the following awards are in effect:

12.7.1 ONE BASE. A base runner is entitled to advance one base with no liability to be put out.

12.7.1.1 If forced to vacate a base because of a one-base award to the batter."

Neither ASA nor NCAA (nor OBR) defines the term award. If the term needed any kind of specific differentiation, they would probably define it.

I would say that whenever a BR or runner is permitted to advance to base X without liability to be put out, that constitutes an "award" to base X. That BR or runner has been "awarded" base X. But that doesn't mean that the runner gets base X no matter what else happens. He can still pass a runner (or, if the ball is live, commit INT or violate the LBR) and be called out, or another runner can commit a violation that causes a third out before the awarded base is taken.

"Without liability to be put out" does not mean "without liability to be declared out," so even though bases have been awarded, a third out on a runner declared out constitutes a time play for the purposes of scoring runs. (That's the way I read the interpretations, and OBR operates under that principle, but I can't say I'm 100% certain for ASA or NCAA.)

Now let's take the OP and add a wrinkle. While the runner from 3B dawdles coming home, the overzealous runner from 2B rounds 3B and gets trapped in a rundown between 3B and home. Before the runner from 3B touches the plate, the trapped runner deliberately interferes with a throw and is declared out by the umpire. By my reasoning, the run would not count, because the third out was a runner declared out, not put out (as in the OP).

Well, greymule at least gets my question, and socalumps has answered from the NCAA side.

"Entitled to advance without being put out" is NOT an award.

"Entitled to one base" simply notes the distance the runner is allowed to advance under protection of the rule. But I wouldn't have to say that if you quoted the entire paragraph.

It depends on what the meaning of is....is??

Bill Clinton

OK...it doesn't say the word "award". It says "entitled". I still don't see why you are making such a point about the word "award" not being there. In fact, based on the definitions I provided, the word "entitled" is a stronger word than "award". There is no doubt that R1 is entitled to home plate despite the other runner being thrown out before R1 got to home plate.

Because being entitled to advance without being put out doesn't mean you are entitled to a base, just to not be put out during the advancement to the one base when forced.

As we all know a force no longer exist once a trailing runner is retired. And if that retired runner is the third out executed prior to any runner scoring, no run can score.

I'm trying to figure out basis for these interpretations since they contradict given rules.

So does SRW... see post #13. :)

As much as I hate to admit it I see what Irish is getting at. The rules say that you are entitled to advance without liability to be put out. Ok, so R1 is not being put out, but question is when does the inning end? When the 3rd out is obtained...so if R2 is put out prior to R1 touching their base they are entitled to advance to without liability to be put out....why would they be allowed to continue to advance, and score AFTER the inning is over?

Maybe I wasn't as clear, but I thought I said that back at post #14.

Sean&Steve,

Sorry I overlooked your posts. Guess I was focused more on those who I was trying to get to see the difference between the wording of the rule and the case plays/interpretations being offered.

Good question. According to the NFHS case play, they are allowed to because they say they are allowed to. But, in ASA, the inning is over, and there is nothing (that I can find) in the ASA rule book to say that R1 can mosey across home after the third out and have the run count.

at mosey speed
 

How about a situation where the bases are loaded and two outs. Batter hits a long fly ball to the center field fence. R3, having lost track of the outs does not run to 2B but is returning to 1B to tag up.

A. Ball bounces off F8's glove and over the fence for a 4 base award;

B. Ball clears the fence easily.

However, the batter, not seeing R3 tagging up at 1B passes the runner and is declared out for the third out of the inning. How many runs are permitted to score? Only those that crossed home before the batter passed the runner or all three runners?

Thanx,

Ted

I could be wrong, but I see a difference between this play and a walk. In both a four base award, and a homerun, all runners are awarded all bases, forced or not, as long as they do not violate a baserunning requirement (missing a base, or passing another runner). So, since the baserunners (R1, R2, and R3) are awarded home, they score. Batter is out; not a timing play on the dead ball, awarded bases score as awarded, as long as they precede the runner that made the third out.

If R3 passed R2, then only two score. Etc., etc., etc.

On the walk, only the batter is awarded 1 base. Unforced runners advance at their own risk; forced runners are not awarded a base, they are simply advancing without liability to be put out. That is a timing play, live ball, and if they do not score before the third out is made, they do not score.

IMO.

Speaking ASA, of course (or, at least not NFHS).

If there are less than 2 outs, R2 rounds 3B and is put out as above, is R1 now in jeopardy since he is no longer forced home?

No. Since R1 was forced to advance due to the BR being awarded 1B on the walk, R1 is now entitled to advance without liability of being put out, regardless of what happens behind him.