Missed base - what to do, what to do?
 

ASA slow pitch, adult men (ha!). Batter hits gapper and is heading for 3b. Off line throw in and ball arrives wide of third toward home and about 6' toward 2b. A tag play ensues and I'm blocked out and can't tell if tag was applied or not. I rule "safe" and immediately go to my partener for help on tag. He walks toward me and we meet on 3b side of pitching area. Before I get my question answered he says, "He missed 2b anyway". I cringe at the loudness of his statement and I say, don't care and ask again if there was tag. He says "no" and I walk away and signal again, safe.

Now the pitcher appeals to me that the runner the missed base (everyone in the world heard my partner). I tell him to go to my partner. My partner stands there dumbfounded looking at me. I point to him and tell him it's your call. He stands there looking at me a little longer and finally makes the call and rules runner out.

Of course all heck breaks loose.

My question, since the umpire tipped the defense should this be allowed? I let it stand and just took the heat. This was the same game that I walked off on in my previous post by the way.

Wrong order. This isn't a preliminary call pending additional information. If you had a serious question on the tag/no tag, ask first, then rule. But really, if I assume you were PU, in position at 3B, and your partner was across the diamond....you gotta make this call.


And, yeah, your partner hosed it by speaking out loud on the missed base. He earned every bit of the to-do he got on that one.

If he was the PU, I want to know why he was at 3B making the call. This is the BUs call all the way.

And this is one the PU can rectify since the umpire's comments obviously placed the runner in jeopardy, should the PU choose to do so :D

LMan, I have to disagree with you. This is the BU's call all the way, and he has to make a call. There is no reason to believe or expect that PU is any position to give anything more than minimal assistance on BU's call, so there is no valid reason to attempt to pass the call to PU.

Make YOUR call, then go for help if you believe you may not have seen the entire play. In this case, "Safe; no tag"; then go for help to find out if PU had an angle and position to see a tag.

If you turned and pointed to me, I would respond by telling you "Your call!!", and point back.

OK, yes it is unbelievable your part did not whisper the runner missed 2b, if he even mentions it to you. Which I know I would not, well not until the next inning.

But it happened. Now what.

You should have still got the answer to your tag question at the plate, FIRST. Since it is the primary play. Now knowing that your part just told the world the runner missed 2b, you better call the runner out on the tag. Well let me put that better, your partner is going to call the runner out on a tag.

Why? We have the same outcome (runner is out and no run) and the mistake by the BU telling the other team the runner missed the base is nullified.

But, by how you described the BU and in what he did, I doubt you are going to be able to get that across to him in the 10 sec you have before the Sh#t hits the fan. Plus you better do it so NO one else hears.

Other then that you got to eat the missed base call.

now I got to read your other post.

P.S. did you ever find out if there was a tag?

Why hang your part? They are your only friend. Yes it is their call, but why are you telling everyone in the park that they should have seen it and I am not going to help you?

In this situation you have the batter going all the way around so what are you watching? In the same breath, I do NOT MAKE the call. I get with my part and I tell him what I saw and let him make the call.

But never would I ever hang him out to dry like that. I would rather get together with him and tell him he missed the play by a mile and had to eat it, but no one else would EVER hear it.

Hang my partner? He is pointing at me to make his call from 60'+ without any possible angle, when he is supposedly taking this runner going all the way around and ending roughly 10' away in supposedly perfect position 90 degrees to the tag, so what was he doing and what is he watching? Who exactly is hanging whom if he points at me then? What possible credibility can the PU have to make the initial call on this play from his position? What could the BU be thinking (other than let him hang with this) by pointing to the PU without making a call?

Make a call; then get together to see what the PU may have seen. Don't pass the buck without realizing YOU are hanging the PU; who might well refuse to bail you out. It isn't his call to make (or eat); it's YOURS. LinknBlue handled his responsibility properly (assuming he was the BU); he made his call, and, knowing he had a bad angle, asked his partner if HE saw a tag.

He said he was PU so he should have let the BU take the call, unless for some reason the BR held up at 2B, which there is no mention of.

ASA says you make the call then ask for help. If I remember correctly, NCAA says you ask for help the second you need it then make the call (examp...pulled foot at 1B, you look at PU and say did she pull her foot, yes says yes then the OUT call.)

You so funny.

Just to clear thing up a bit. I was plate umpire, partner was bases. Our agreement at pregame was he'd take 1st and 2nd and I'd take 3b and home. If I got stuck at 3b he'd back me up at home.

From my position on 3b tag play the tag was away from me but my partner, who wasn't moving to cover HP where he was supposed to go was hanging out at 2b.

I call runner safe because I saw no tag. I immediately call time and walk to my partner to ask if he had the angle on tag. I asked him and his response was "he missed 2b anyway". I asked again, trying to ignore his 2b comment to get my answer. He saw no tag he says. I walked away and signaled "safe", no tag hoping like heck no one would appeal 2b missed but NO, didn't work. They appealed to me. I told them to ask my partner. He looked like a deer in headlights and after being asked two or three times he signals "out"

Right about 10 seconds not enough time to process all this and from the sound of it, I should have ruled safe at second instead of letting him rule "out".

Live and learn I guess.

I agree, but tell him not the whole stadium. I would never verbalize "your call" when asked for help. To me it says you should have seen it why are you asking for help.

I say you still need to call the runner out for missing second, back to that. You can not change the call because your part let it slip. The runner still missed the base. Let the BU call them out and get ready to take a beating.

Didn't we have a decent thread on this just a while back?

Yep...this just verifies why you don't split it up the way they did. Hopefully a valuable lesson was learned.

Who is this 'you?' Link aint calling the missed base, because he didn't see it, the BU did. That's HIS call.

..and HIS s**tstorm. The only one taking a beating here on the missed base is the BU...and he earned it.

Umpires own their calls, and defend their own calls.

The live and learn part is that an agreement like this made in 5 seconds does not replace proper 2-person mechanics nor does it alleviate the need for a pregame with your partner.

Oh, and you shouldn't have asked on the tag play. Make the call and get back in position. Of course, I will never understand why a BU needs help at third with a single BR. On the 90' diamond, the BU takes that call (using pro or college mechanics).

Don't start with that BB crap here!!! :D Just kidding, Rich.

However, you are correct, the BU should have no problem getting into position to cover 3B with a BR. For that matter, s/he should be nearly halfway there by the time the BR rounds 1B.

I do not know softball mechanics, but I can't imagine softball would want the PU covering third AND the BU rotating home on a ball where U1 didn't go out.

Correct for two-ump, but there are some who do it. Really wonderful when you work with someone from another area/group and each of you are used to different mechanics.

How the devil can you not cover Home and 3B? I can see not being able to get to 3B when you've already a runner coming in from 3B. Get off your lazy butt and cover your areas of responsibility!

I agree with Rich & the others - you should have gotten into the right position to make your call at 3B - and not have gone for help on that play. Do it the right way and you avoid the CF that followed.

???

I guess "I" missed what "you" are generally saying. Since I agree, with you, or is it me, or him.

And you, that being yourself, do not think you, again yourself, are not going to hear it too, this too being for also, not two, or 2, or to.

Thank "you"

:D

amen

Like you have never missed one???
 

Why all the hate? There are posts saying get in position, how did you miss that play?

Well I have missed a tag standing 4 feet away, it happens, and I am sure it will happen again.

I know the swipe tag on a runner on third when you are the PU coming up the line is a AWFUL call to make. I will ask the BU for help on that with no reservations.

I also hate the BU rotating home and I do not use it.

Get in position and make the call. The call is not "awful" if you let the throw take you to the right position.

I would never ask a partner for help on this one. I can't imagine an umpire actually doing this, to be honest.

Nah, 36 years and counting. :) I shouldn't even humor fitty here, but...

'backing your partner' has nothing to do with jumping in and defending his initial call to a rat. If there's a banger at 1B and the HC runs out to fuss at BU, do you as PU sprint down the 1B line to interpose yourself before the HC even gets there?

Hell no. You let your BU take care of business. Now, if it gets ugly, or the HC is ejected or if his minions show up, sure you move up there and peel off the flotsam and/or guide the ejected one out of the scene. But you aint there being your BU's lawyer while the initial call is discussed. This is like Ump 101.

Now, here, the PU is watching the tag at 3B (and missing it, but thats another story)...then the BU makes a call on a missed base the PU never saw. The HC gets upset about the missed base call, which the BU hosed by yakking about it loudly.

That's the BU's mess, and he gets the first crack at fixing it. It would be more embarrassing to try and 'save' him from it. But then, you know all this.... :rolleyes: You are free to continue with the armchair psychology, though :D

"amen." If yall want to shadowbox on the forum, yall need to pick a more defensible scenario than this one.

Moral of this whole scenario/story........Let the BU take the single runner into 3B. Then there isn't an issue at all.

Preach it.

I will ask for help on this play almost every time at third:

2 man crew, less then 2 outs, runner on second.

Ball to short stop, looks runner back, makes play to first, BU's call. Runner takes off to third, as PU I am taking the play at third. the throw draws the third baseman in and toward second. They make a swipe tag, and I as PU do not see any contact. Unless you are super man and you are standing at third looking down the base line to second, which you then left your part hanging on the pulled foot at first. Why not ask your part if they had a tag. Since they should be standing what? 10-15 feet behind the pitchers mound with a perfect angle on the swipe tag.

I am not going to save him, but I will not help hang him either. You know a partners silence or even were they are standing in a situation like this says more then words most times.

I know some will disagree with me, but I believe PU needs to stay in the vicinity of home looking down the 1b line to help with the pulled foot, then release to get the play at third. Don't go directly up the line to third, take a path approx halfway between 3b and the pitchers circle, then adjust with the throw. Ideally, you get set, watch the play, and close to the base as you make the call. If you hustle, you can get a decent look at the play.

I agree, you have to stay and watch the foot. That is why it is hard to get that swipe tag at 3rd. You have fielder, ball & glove and then runner in a strait line right in front of you, I hate it when that happens. The worst is when you are alone and you have no part for help.

Andy,
I agree with you. After verifying whether or not a puuled foot at 1B, bust your tail to 3B for that call. I'll state that I'm far faster than most, in moving as an umpire, but all should be able to take care of responsibilities of being able to help with pulled foot at 1b (Isn't this the call that statistics show has the most ejections?) - and still get to a good calling position for the play at
3B.

I will disagree. With a runner on 1B, you are correct. With a runner on 2B, there is no way, even with Steve's speed, you can wait for a play at 1B and still be in any type of acceptable position for a play at 3B. You are not going to outrun the throw to 3B especially at the adult level which is where this thread began.

If R1 is releasing on the throw to 1B, s/he will be more than 2/3 of the way to 3B by the time the play is completed at 1B. If the runner wasn't checked prior to the throw to 1B, s/he is going to be on 3B by the time the play at 1B is complete. And should that runner feel a little frisky and keep coming, you are directly in the line of the throw to the plate. Even if that only happens once, it is one time too many.

The PU can still watch 1B for a possible pulled foot, but needs to do it from the foul side of the 3B line and be prepared for any play at 3B or home.

On the 90' diamond, I take both ends as the BU with no problems. Is this harder on the 60' diamond because the umpires are starting outside the diamond?

But if I was the PU and for some reason I did come up, I'd do the best I can, call the runner safe, and head back to the plate. If the BU knew I was coming up, I'd expect him to close distance at first and not have a great view at third. Worst thing I could do is make no call, look for a partner not in a good position, and then make a late, weak call.

Pulled foot and swipe tags belong to the BU in my world. I get the best position possible and make the call. Last week I had a "pulled foot" that wasn't - the kid caught the ball and came off quick and of course I was the only one in the place watching the foot at the time of the catch. The coach couldn't believe or understand that I would not, absolutely not, get help on a call I was 100% sure of. About a minute later he decided he didn't like a call I made 2 innings earlier and shouted out, "That's two you've missed," which got him sent to the parking lot. Yup, the players were 9-10 years old and it was, indeed, a Little League game.

Rich,
Standard mechanics in softball have PU making the call at 3B on this play. When I do a BB game, I try to do things according to the standard mechanics of BB, even though I am a softball ump who does some baseball.

As for the dump over "that's Two." AMEN

That's the key to the softball mechanic, Rich. The BU has to know that PU has 3rd on this play, and should close to get the right call on the front end at 1st. Remember, BU is starting outside the diamond, somewhere behind F6 (ideally off the left shoulder). If BU has closed, sells a close call, how does he effectively also spin around to make that banger call at 3rd. The best angle on the play at 1st has BU edging toward 2nd and closing in (away from the play at 3rd), while edging toward 3rd creates a poor angle at 1st (as well as potentially puts BU in the line of the throw from 1st to 3rd).

And, if you want him to do both calls, a) neither is that believable, 2) he invariably cheats on distance and/or angle on the front end to try to make a better call on the back end, and 3) everyone wonders why BU is making both calls while PU is still standing still behind the plate.

Thus, the proper softball mechanic is that BU closes and makes the best possible call at 1st, instead of the AT&T long distance call, while PU heads toward 3rd, and has the perfect 90 on the most typical tag play on 3rd, while staying completely out of the line of the throw. BU does turn and look, only to provide help (if asked) on the swipe tag that may be beyond the angle of the PU.