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whiskers_ump Wed Jul 23, 2008 02:34pm
More What's The Calls
 
1. R1 on 2B, R2 on 1B, 1 out. B1 squares to bunt. F3 and F5 charge home as F4 and F6 head to their respective corner bases. B1 pulls bat back and hits pop fly towards 2B. Pitcher is closest fielder to batted ball, but cannot get to it before it lands near the 2B bag. R1 and R2 stay put as 3B coach yells for infield fly, but FU does not call it. F1 grabs ball, tags R1 and then steps on 2B for the force of R2, ending the inning. Correct call?

2. R1 at 3B, R2 at 2B, R3 at 1B, 1 out. B1 hits line drive caught by F4. R1 and R3 freeze, R2 retreats to her base to tag. F4 throws to 1B for the force of R3, but overthrows F3 and ball enters dugout. R3 scores, followed by R2 on the two base advance. R1 is awarded 3B. Prior to next pitch, Defense appeals R1 not tagging up at 3B, and ump gives an out to end the inning. Does the score of the trailing R2 stand? Should R1 have been awarded 3B having not "re-possessed" 1B prior to the dead ball?

3. R1 at 2B, 2 outs. B1 hits ground ball to F8. R1 rounds 3B and scores, as F6 cuts off throw and tags B1 trying to achieve 2B. R1 scores well before tag on B1, without dispute. Prior to next pitch, Defense appeals B1 missing 1B. Umpire gives the appeal and calls B1 out for missing 1B. Does score of R1 stand?

NCASAUmp Wed Jul 23, 2008 02:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskers_ump
1. R1 on 2B, R2 on 1B, 1 out. B1 squares to bunt. F3 and F5 charge home as F4 and F6 head to their respective corner bases. B1 pulls bat back and hits pop fly towards 2B. Pitcher is closest fielder to batted ball, but cannot get to it before it lands near the 2B bag. R1 and R2 stay put as 3B coach yells for infield fly, but FU does not call it. F1 grabs ball, tags R1 and then steps on 2B for the force of R2, ending the inning. Correct call?
If no infielder could have made the catch with ordinary effort, then yes, no IFF. You screwed your own runners, coach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskers_ump
2. R1 at 3B, R2 at 2B, R3 at 1B, 1 out. B1 hits line drive caught by F4. R1 and R3 freeze, R2 retreats to her base to tag. F4 throws to 1B for the force of R3, but overthrows F3 and ball enters dugout. R3 scores, followed by R2 on the two base advance. R1 is awarded 3B. Prior to next pitch, Defense appeals R1 not tagging up at 3B, and ump gives an out to end the inning. Does the score of the trailing R2 stand? Should R1 have been awarded 3B having not "re-possessed" 1B prior to the dead ball?
The runners are awarded 2 bases from time of throw. However, they must still complete their baserunning responsibilities, which include tagging up after a caught fly ball. If R1 did not tag up, then the defense may appeal. We now have the third out. Runners that succeeded the appealed out do not score, only preceding runners. (ASA 5-B-3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskers_ump
3. R1 at 2B, 2 outs. B1 hits ground ball to F8. R1 rounds 3B and scores, as F6 cuts off throw and tags B1 trying to achieve 2B. R1 scores well before tag on B1, without dispute. Prior to next pitch, Defense appeals B1 missing 1B. Umpire gives the appeal and calls B1 out for missing 1B. Does score of R1 stand?
If you've already got 3 outs, you've got 3 outs. Run scores. Fourth out appeal only applies to a runner that scored. (ASA 5-5-C)

TexBlue Wed Jul 23, 2008 03:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCASAUmp
If you've already got 3 outs, you've got 3 outs. Run scores. Fourth out appeal only applies to a runner that scored. (ASA 5-5-C)
That would still be considered a force out at 1st base, so the run does not count.

youngump Wed Jul 23, 2008 03:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexBlue
That would still be considered a force out at 1st base, so the run does not count.
In NFHS. In ASA, you just missed about a half dozen questions on this years test.
________
Marijuana card

JefferMC Wed Jul 23, 2008 03:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskers_ump
...

2. ... F4 throws to 1B for the force of R3...
Just wanted to be the first to point out that this isn't a force, but a live-ball appeal for leaving early. ;)

TexBlue Wed Jul 23, 2008 03:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngump
In NFHS. In ASA, you just missed about a half dozen questions on this years test.
Wouldn't ASA's 8-7-G apply to this?

TexBlue Wed Jul 23, 2008 03:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JefferMC
Just wanted to be the first to point out that this isn't a force, but a live-ball appeal for leaving early. ;)
We're talking about number 3, I believe. B1 hit the ground ball and the appeal was on him/her.

JefferMC Wed Jul 23, 2008 03:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexBlue
We're talking about number 3, I believe. B1 hit the ground ball and the appeal was on him/her.
I was talking about #2, which you can see by my quote:
Quote:
2...
In #2. B1 was out on a line drive caught by F4.

Just because others are dwelling on #3, doesn't mean I have to join them. But I will. More nit picking:

Quote:
Prior to next pitch, Defense appeals...
Need to do that before the defense leaves the field (there are three outs already).

On the substantive points of #3, this is an interesting difference between ASA and NFHS.

whiskers_ump Wed Jul 23, 2008 04:02pm
JfferMAC,

Good catch on the before next pitch.

NCASAUmp Wed Jul 23, 2008 04:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexBlue
That would still be considered a force out at 1st base, so the run does not count.
I wasn't aware you could get a runner out twice...

Dakota Wed Jul 23, 2008 04:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskers_ump
1. R1 on 2B, R2 on 1B, 1 out. B1 squares to bunt. F3 and F5 charge home as F4 and F6 head to their respective corner bases. B1 pulls bat back and hits pop fly towards 2B. Pitcher is closest fielder to batted ball, but cannot get to it before it lands near the 2B bag. R1 and R2 stay put as 3B coach yells for infield fly, but FU does not call it. F1 grabs ball, tags R1 and then steps on 2B for the force of R2, ending the inning. Correct call?
Purely judgment call, but no IFF sounds right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskers_ump
2. R1 at 3B, R2 at 2B, R3 at 1B, 1 out. B1 hits line drive caught by F4. R1 and R3 freeze, R2 retreats to her base to tag. F4 throws to 1B for the force of R3, but overthrows F3 and ball enters dugout. R3 scores, followed by R2 on the two base advance. R1 is awarded 3B. Prior to next pitch, Defense appeals R1 not tagging up at 3B, and ump gives an out to end the inning. Does the score of the trailing R2 stand? Should R1 have been awarded 3B having not "re-possessed" 1B prior to the dead ball?
Live ball appeal at 1B, not a force. Appeal of R3 for the 3rd out means R2 does not score, either. R1 returning to touch 1B was her responsibility before advancing on the base awards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskers_ump
3. R1 at 2B, 2 outs. B1 hits ground ball to F8. R1 rounds 3B and scores, as F6 cuts off throw and tags B1 trying to achieve 2B. R1 scores well before tag on B1, without dispute. Prior to next pitch, Defense appeals B1 missing 1B. Umpire gives the appeal and calls B1 out for missing 1B. Does score of R1 stand?
Umpire should not honor the appeal at 1B, since it is a 4th out appeal on a runner who has not scored (ASA). Run scores. In NFHS, assuming the defense is still on the field, no runs score.

Crabby_Bob Thu Jul 24, 2008 03:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskers_ump
2. R1 at 3B, R2 at 2B, R3 at 1B, 1 out. B1 hits line drive caught by F4. R1 and R3 freeze, R2 retreats to her base to tag. F4 throws to 1B for the force of R3, but overthrows F3 and ball enters dugout.
So far so good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskers_ump
R3 scores, followed by R2 on the two base advance. R1 is awarded 3B.
R3 has passed R2 <i>and</i> R1. R2 has passed R1. R1 is awarded the base she was entitled to at TOP. <i>Huh?</i>
Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskers_ump
Prior to next pitch, Defense appeals R1 not tagging up at 3B, and ump gives an out to end the inning. Does the score of the trailing R2 stand? Should R1 have been awarded 3B having not "re-possessed" 1B prior to the dead ball?
R1 runs the bases in reverse order? taking care not to pass trailing runners...
<br>
I'm sure I'm whistling in the face of a tornado when I say I prefer the notation R# where # is the base the runner legally possesses at the time of the pitch. I presume <b>whiskers_ump</b> is unintentionally mixing the two conventions. This confusion arises from the requirement to specify the runner's base when using R1 to designate the lead runner. R1's location is different for each situation. I believe it's cleaner and clearer in the R# notation. First and second is R1, R2 or R2, R1, it doesn't matter. First and third is R1, R3. Second and third is R2, R3. <b>whiskers_ump</b>'s second situation is...
<br>
<i>2. R1 at <b>1</b>B, R2 at 2B, R3 at <b>3</b>B, [or R1,2,3], [or bases loaded], 1 out. B1 hits line drive caught by F4. R1 and R3 freeze, R2 retreats to her base to tag. F4 throws [to 1B] for the force[sic] of R<b>1</b>, but overthrows F3 and ball enters dugout. R3 scores, followed by R2 on the two base advance. R1 is awarded 3B. Prior to next pitch, Defense appeals R<b>3</b> not tagging up [at 3B], and ump gives an out to end the inning. Does the score of the trailing R2 stand? Should R1 have been awarded 3B having not "re-possessed" 1B prior to the dead ball?</i>
<br>

IRISHMAFIA Thu Jul 24, 2008 06:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabby_Bob
So far so good.

R3 has passed R2 and R1. R2 has passed R1. R1 is awarded the base she was entitled to at TOP. Huh?

R1 runs the bases in reverse order? taking care not to pass trailing runners...


I'm sure I'm whistling in the face of a tornado when I say I prefer the notation R# where # is the base the runner legally possesses at the time of the pitch. I presume whiskers_ump is unintentionally mixing the two conventions. This confusion arises from the requirement to specify the runner's base when using R1 to designate the lead runner. R1's location is different for each situation. I believe it's cleaner and clearer in the R# notation. First and second is R1, R2 or R2, R1, it doesn't matter. First and third is R1, R3. Second and third is R2, R3. whiskers_ump's second situation is...


2. R1 at 1B, R2 at 2B, R3 at 3B, [or R1,2,3], [or bases loaded], 1 out. B1 hits line drive caught by F4. R1 and R3 freeze, R2 retreats to her base to tag. F4 throws [to 1B] for the force[sic] of R1, but overthrows F3 and ball enters dugout. R3 scores, followed by R2 on the two base advance. R1 is awarded 3B. Prior to next pitch, Defense appeals R3 not tagging up [at 3B], and ump gives an out to end the inning. Does the score of the trailing R2 stand? Should R1 have been awarded 3B having not "re-possessed" 1B prior to the dead ball?
Of all the real softball umpires I know, not a single one has a problem understanding the indicators used on our game. So, you can go back to the baseball board now, thank you.

whiskers_ump Thu Jul 24, 2008 09:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabby_Bob
So far so good.

R3 has passed R2 <i>and</i> R1. R2 has passed R1. R1 is awarded the base she was entitled to at TOP. <i>Huh?</i>

R1 runs the bases in reverse order? taking care not to pass trailing runners...
<br>
I'm sure I'm whistling in the face of a tornado when I say I prefer the notation R# where # is the base the runner legally possesses at the time of the pitch. I presume <b>whiskers_ump</b> is unintentionally mixing the two conventions. This confusion arises from the requirement to specify the runner's base when using R1 to designate the lead runner. R1's location is different for each situation. I believe it's cleaner and clearer in the R# notation. First and second is R1, R2 or R2, R1, it doesn't matter. First and third is R1, R3. Second and third is R2, R3. <b>whiskers_ump</b>'s second situation is...
<br>
<i>2. R1 at <b>1</b>B, R2 at 2B, R3 at <b>3</b>B, [or R1,2,3], [or bases loaded], 1 out. B1 hits line drive caught by F4. R1 and R3 freeze, R2 retreats to her base to tag. F4 throws [to 1B] for the force[sic] of R<b>1</b>, but overthrows F3 and ball enters dugout. R3 scores, followed by R2 on the two base advance. R1 is awarded 3B. Prior to next pitch, Defense appeals R<b>3</b> not tagging up [at 3B], and ump gives an out to end the inning. Does the score of the trailing R2 stand? Should R1 have been awarded 3B having not "re-possessed" 1B prior to the dead ball?</i>
<br>
Which runner landed on base first? R1, second R2, third R3, so they would
be---R1 at 3B, R2 at 2B and R3 at 1B. B1 you referred to, has already been
to the plate as have B2, B3, B4, now the batter would be B5. Simple to
follow.

FullCount Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:24pm
From Scenario 2 in the OP:

"Prior to next pitch, Defense appeals R1 not tagging up at 3B, and ump gives an out to end the inning. Does the score of the trailing R2 stand? Should R1 have been awarded 3B having not "re-possessed" 1B prior to the dead ball?"

Was the second reference to R1, in the last sentence, in error?

Should it have read "Should R3 have been awarded 3B for having not "re-possessed" 1B prior to the dead ball?" Why would R1, who started on 3B, need to repossess 1B?

Maybe there's a source of confusion here.


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