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whiskers_ump Wed Jul 23, 2008 02:34pm
More What's The Calls
 
1. R1 on 2B, R2 on 1B, 1 out. B1 squares to bunt. F3 and F5 charge home as F4 and F6 head to their respective corner bases. B1 pulls bat back and hits pop fly towards 2B. Pitcher is closest fielder to batted ball, but cannot get to it before it lands near the 2B bag. R1 and R2 stay put as 3B coach yells for infield fly, but FU does not call it. F1 grabs ball, tags R1 and then steps on 2B for the force of R2, ending the inning. Correct call?

2. R1 at 3B, R2 at 2B, R3 at 1B, 1 out. B1 hits line drive caught by F4. R1 and R3 freeze, R2 retreats to her base to tag. F4 throws to 1B for the force of R3, but overthrows F3 and ball enters dugout. R3 scores, followed by R2 on the two base advance. R1 is awarded 3B. Prior to next pitch, Defense appeals R1 not tagging up at 3B, and ump gives an out to end the inning. Does the score of the trailing R2 stand? Should R1 have been awarded 3B having not "re-possessed" 1B prior to the dead ball?

3. R1 at 2B, 2 outs. B1 hits ground ball to F8. R1 rounds 3B and scores, as F6 cuts off throw and tags B1 trying to achieve 2B. R1 scores well before tag on B1, without dispute. Prior to next pitch, Defense appeals B1 missing 1B. Umpire gives the appeal and calls B1 out for missing 1B. Does score of R1 stand?

NCASAUmp Wed Jul 23, 2008 02:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskers_ump
1. R1 on 2B, R2 on 1B, 1 out. B1 squares to bunt. F3 and F5 charge home as F4 and F6 head to their respective corner bases. B1 pulls bat back and hits pop fly towards 2B. Pitcher is closest fielder to batted ball, but cannot get to it before it lands near the 2B bag. R1 and R2 stay put as 3B coach yells for infield fly, but FU does not call it. F1 grabs ball, tags R1 and then steps on 2B for the force of R2, ending the inning. Correct call?
If no infielder could have made the catch with ordinary effort, then yes, no IFF. You screwed your own runners, coach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskers_ump
2. R1 at 3B, R2 at 2B, R3 at 1B, 1 out. B1 hits line drive caught by F4. R1 and R3 freeze, R2 retreats to her base to tag. F4 throws to 1B for the force of R3, but overthrows F3 and ball enters dugout. R3 scores, followed by R2 on the two base advance. R1 is awarded 3B. Prior to next pitch, Defense appeals R1 not tagging up at 3B, and ump gives an out to end the inning. Does the score of the trailing R2 stand? Should R1 have been awarded 3B having not "re-possessed" 1B prior to the dead ball?
The runners are awarded 2 bases from time of throw. However, they must still complete their baserunning responsibilities, which include tagging up after a caught fly ball. If R1 did not tag up, then the defense may appeal. We now have the third out. Runners that succeeded the appealed out do not score, only preceding runners. (ASA 5-B-3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskers_ump
3. R1 at 2B, 2 outs. B1 hits ground ball to F8. R1 rounds 3B and scores, as F6 cuts off throw and tags B1 trying to achieve 2B. R1 scores well before tag on B1, without dispute. Prior to next pitch, Defense appeals B1 missing 1B. Umpire gives the appeal and calls B1 out for missing 1B. Does score of R1 stand?
If you've already got 3 outs, you've got 3 outs. Run scores. Fourth out appeal only applies to a runner that scored. (ASA 5-5-C)

TexBlue Wed Jul 23, 2008 03:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCASAUmp
If you've already got 3 outs, you've got 3 outs. Run scores. Fourth out appeal only applies to a runner that scored. (ASA 5-5-C)
That would still be considered a force out at 1st base, so the run does not count.

youngump Wed Jul 23, 2008 03:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexBlue
That would still be considered a force out at 1st base, so the run does not count.
In NFHS. In ASA, you just missed about a half dozen questions on this years test.
________
Marijuana card

JefferMC Wed Jul 23, 2008 03:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskers_ump
...

2. ... F4 throws to 1B for the force of R3...
Just wanted to be the first to point out that this isn't a force, but a live-ball appeal for leaving early. ;)

TexBlue Wed Jul 23, 2008 03:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngump
In NFHS. In ASA, you just missed about a half dozen questions on this years test.
Wouldn't ASA's 8-7-G apply to this?

TexBlue Wed Jul 23, 2008 03:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JefferMC
Just wanted to be the first to point out that this isn't a force, but a live-ball appeal for leaving early. ;)
We're talking about number 3, I believe. B1 hit the ground ball and the appeal was on him/her.

JefferMC Wed Jul 23, 2008 03:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexBlue
We're talking about number 3, I believe. B1 hit the ground ball and the appeal was on him/her.
I was talking about #2, which you can see by my quote:
Quote:
2...
In #2. B1 was out on a line drive caught by F4.

Just because others are dwelling on #3, doesn't mean I have to join them. But I will. More nit picking:

Quote:
Prior to next pitch, Defense appeals...
Need to do that before the defense leaves the field (there are three outs already).

On the substantive points of #3, this is an interesting difference between ASA and NFHS.

whiskers_ump Wed Jul 23, 2008 04:02pm
JfferMAC,

Good catch on the before next pitch.

NCASAUmp Wed Jul 23, 2008 04:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexBlue
That would still be considered a force out at 1st base, so the run does not count.
I wasn't aware you could get a runner out twice...

Dakota Wed Jul 23, 2008 04:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskers_ump
1. R1 on 2B, R2 on 1B, 1 out. B1 squares to bunt. F3 and F5 charge home as F4 and F6 head to their respective corner bases. B1 pulls bat back and hits pop fly towards 2B. Pitcher is closest fielder to batted ball, but cannot get to it before it lands near the 2B bag. R1 and R2 stay put as 3B coach yells for infield fly, but FU does not call it. F1 grabs ball, tags R1 and then steps on 2B for the force of R2, ending the inning. Correct call?
Purely judgment call, but no IFF sounds right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskers_ump
2. R1 at 3B, R2 at 2B, R3 at 1B, 1 out. B1 hits line drive caught by F4. R1 and R3 freeze, R2 retreats to her base to tag. F4 throws to 1B for the force of R3, but overthrows F3 and ball enters dugout. R3 scores, followed by R2 on the two base advance. R1 is awarded 3B. Prior to next pitch, Defense appeals R1 not tagging up at 3B, and ump gives an out to end the inning. Does the score of the trailing R2 stand? Should R1 have been awarded 3B having not "re-possessed" 1B prior to the dead ball?
Live ball appeal at 1B, not a force. Appeal of R3 for the 3rd out means R2 does not score, either. R1 returning to touch 1B was her responsibility before advancing on the base awards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskers_ump
3. R1 at 2B, 2 outs. B1 hits ground ball to F8. R1 rounds 3B and scores, as F6 cuts off throw and tags B1 trying to achieve 2B. R1 scores well before tag on B1, without dispute. Prior to next pitch, Defense appeals B1 missing 1B. Umpire gives the appeal and calls B1 out for missing 1B. Does score of R1 stand?
Umpire should not honor the appeal at 1B, since it is a 4th out appeal on a runner who has not scored (ASA). Run scores. In NFHS, assuming the defense is still on the field, no runs score.

Crabby_Bob Thu Jul 24, 2008 03:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskers_ump
2. R1 at 3B, R2 at 2B, R3 at 1B, 1 out. B1 hits line drive caught by F4. R1 and R3 freeze, R2 retreats to her base to tag. F4 throws to 1B for the force of R3, but overthrows F3 and ball enters dugout.
So far so good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskers_ump
R3 scores, followed by R2 on the two base advance. R1 is awarded 3B.
R3 has passed R2 <i>and</i> R1. R2 has passed R1. R1 is awarded the base she was entitled to at TOP. <i>Huh?</i>
Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskers_ump
Prior to next pitch, Defense appeals R1 not tagging up at 3B, and ump gives an out to end the inning. Does the score of the trailing R2 stand? Should R1 have been awarded 3B having not "re-possessed" 1B prior to the dead ball?
R1 runs the bases in reverse order? taking care not to pass trailing runners...
<br>
I'm sure I'm whistling in the face of a tornado when I say I prefer the notation R# where # is the base the runner legally possesses at the time of the pitch. I presume <b>whiskers_ump</b> is unintentionally mixing the two conventions. This confusion arises from the requirement to specify the runner's base when using R1 to designate the lead runner. R1's location is different for each situation. I believe it's cleaner and clearer in the R# notation. First and second is R1, R2 or R2, R1, it doesn't matter. First and third is R1, R3. Second and third is R2, R3. <b>whiskers_ump</b>'s second situation is...
<br>
<i>2. R1 at <b>1</b>B, R2 at 2B, R3 at <b>3</b>B, [or R1,2,3], [or bases loaded], 1 out. B1 hits line drive caught by F4. R1 and R3 freeze, R2 retreats to her base to tag. F4 throws [to 1B] for the force[sic] of R<b>1</b>, but overthrows F3 and ball enters dugout. R3 scores, followed by R2 on the two base advance. R1 is awarded 3B. Prior to next pitch, Defense appeals R<b>3</b> not tagging up [at 3B], and ump gives an out to end the inning. Does the score of the trailing R2 stand? Should R1 have been awarded 3B having not "re-possessed" 1B prior to the dead ball?</i>
<br>

IRISHMAFIA Thu Jul 24, 2008 06:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabby_Bob
So far so good.

R3 has passed R2 and R1. R2 has passed R1. R1 is awarded the base she was entitled to at TOP. Huh?

R1 runs the bases in reverse order? taking care not to pass trailing runners...


I'm sure I'm whistling in the face of a tornado when I say I prefer the notation R# where # is the base the runner legally possesses at the time of the pitch. I presume whiskers_ump is unintentionally mixing the two conventions. This confusion arises from the requirement to specify the runner's base when using R1 to designate the lead runner. R1's location is different for each situation. I believe it's cleaner and clearer in the R# notation. First and second is R1, R2 or R2, R1, it doesn't matter. First and third is R1, R3. Second and third is R2, R3. whiskers_ump's second situation is...


2. R1 at 1B, R2 at 2B, R3 at 3B, [or R1,2,3], [or bases loaded], 1 out. B1 hits line drive caught by F4. R1 and R3 freeze, R2 retreats to her base to tag. F4 throws [to 1B] for the force[sic] of R1, but overthrows F3 and ball enters dugout. R3 scores, followed by R2 on the two base advance. R1 is awarded 3B. Prior to next pitch, Defense appeals R3 not tagging up [at 3B], and ump gives an out to end the inning. Does the score of the trailing R2 stand? Should R1 have been awarded 3B having not "re-possessed" 1B prior to the dead ball?
Of all the real softball umpires I know, not a single one has a problem understanding the indicators used on our game. So, you can go back to the baseball board now, thank you.

whiskers_ump Thu Jul 24, 2008 09:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabby_Bob
So far so good.

R3 has passed R2 <i>and</i> R1. R2 has passed R1. R1 is awarded the base she was entitled to at TOP. <i>Huh?</i>

R1 runs the bases in reverse order? taking care not to pass trailing runners...
<br>
I'm sure I'm whistling in the face of a tornado when I say I prefer the notation R# where # is the base the runner legally possesses at the time of the pitch. I presume <b>whiskers_ump</b> is unintentionally mixing the two conventions. This confusion arises from the requirement to specify the runner's base when using R1 to designate the lead runner. R1's location is different for each situation. I believe it's cleaner and clearer in the R# notation. First and second is R1, R2 or R2, R1, it doesn't matter. First and third is R1, R3. Second and third is R2, R3. <b>whiskers_ump</b>'s second situation is...
<br>
<i>2. R1 at <b>1</b>B, R2 at 2B, R3 at <b>3</b>B, [or R1,2,3], [or bases loaded], 1 out. B1 hits line drive caught by F4. R1 and R3 freeze, R2 retreats to her base to tag. F4 throws [to 1B] for the force[sic] of R<b>1</b>, but overthrows F3 and ball enters dugout. R3 scores, followed by R2 on the two base advance. R1 is awarded 3B. Prior to next pitch, Defense appeals R<b>3</b> not tagging up [at 3B], and ump gives an out to end the inning. Does the score of the trailing R2 stand? Should R1 have been awarded 3B having not "re-possessed" 1B prior to the dead ball?</i>
<br>
Which runner landed on base first? R1, second R2, third R3, so they would
be---R1 at 3B, R2 at 2B and R3 at 1B. B1 you referred to, has already been
to the plate as have B2, B3, B4, now the batter would be B5. Simple to
follow.

FullCount Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:24pm
From Scenario 2 in the OP:

"Prior to next pitch, Defense appeals R1 not tagging up at 3B, and ump gives an out to end the inning. Does the score of the trailing R2 stand? Should R1 have been awarded 3B having not "re-possessed" 1B prior to the dead ball?"

Was the second reference to R1, in the last sentence, in error?

Should it have read "Should R3 have been awarded 3B for having not "re-possessed" 1B prior to the dead ball?" Why would R1, who started on 3B, need to repossess 1B?

Maybe there's a source of confusion here.

Crabby_Bob Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by FullCount
From Scenario 2 in the OP:

"Prior to next pitch, Defense appeals R1 not tagging up at 3B, and ump gives an out to end the inning. Does the score of the trailing R2 stand? Should R1 have been awarded 3B having not "re-possessed" 1B prior to the dead ball?"

Was the second reference to R1, in the last sentence, in error?
Yes, imho. Not only that, the previous two sentences read:

Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskers_ump

2. R1 at 3B, R2 at 2B, R3 at 1B, 1 out. [...] F4 [...] overthrows F3 and ball enters dugout.
R3 scores, followed by R2 on the two base advance. R1 is awarded 3B.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FullCount
Maybe there's a source of confusion here.
I agree. I doubt R3 is passing runners, but maybe that's the OP's scenario. OTOH, it's easy to designate runners by her base at TOP. This <b>whiskers_ump</b> has done, apparently unintentionally. That's the point: it's easy to designate runners by the base at TOP. So easy that mistakes happen.

Before I get flamed, let me say I fully understand the leading runner notation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA
(paraphrasing) go back to baseball
Ouch. Flamed anyway. $Diety forbid that softball have <i>anything</i> to do with baseball.

Respectfully,
-CB

IRISHMAFIA Fri Jul 25, 2008 06:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabby_Bob

Ouch. Flamed anyway. $Diety forbid that softball have anything to do with baseball.

Respectfully,
-CB

No, I think it would be the other way around since softball more resembles the game of Rounders, the game from which baseball was "invented".

Designating the offensive player by the order in which they became active in that inning allows for continuity throughout any scenario. Your method does not.

Dakota Fri Jul 25, 2008 07:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabby_Bob
Before I get flamed, let me say I fully understand the leading runner notation.
That right there is full justification for flaming over your (ahem) "contribution" to this thread. You are clearly trolling here. No one here invented the softball notation, and you did not invent the baseball notation. We use the notation of the sport being discussed. To come there and troll about notation is silly and obviously merely intended to spark response.

In summary, go away.

wadeintothem Fri Jul 25, 2008 08:07am
1. Obviously baseball's notation system is better; however, that is not the system used in softball so that fight means nothing. Every test, case play, rule discussion, rule book, pamphlet, clinic, and leaflet uses the same notation system.. so discussing that is meaningless. It is consistent, understandable, and the way softball does it. Get used to it and over it.

2.
Quote:
1. R1 on 2B, R2 on 1B, 1 out. B1 squares to bunt. F3 and F5 charge home as F4 and F6 head to their respective corner bases. B1 pulls bat back and hits pop fly towards 2B. Pitcher is closest fielder to batted ball, but cannot get to it before it lands near the 2B bag. R1 and R2 stay put as 3B coach yells for infield fly, but FU does not call it. F1 grabs ball, tags R1 and then steps on 2B for the force of R2, ending the inning. Correct call?
No its probably not. This is the exact intent of IF is to prevent the easy double play. If a infielder can simply pick the ball up and make an easy weak sauce DP, then it probably can be considered "ordinary effort" to catch it. The IF should have been declared. Why? On an infield fly ball, the runners are holding. The rule is designed to protect them because they must hold.

SRW Fri Jul 25, 2008 09:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wadeintothem
1. Obviously baseball's notation system is better; however, that is not the system used in softball so that fight means nothing.
Obviously?

wadeintothem Fri Jul 25, 2008 09:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SRW
Obviously?
:D ;)

ronald Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:40am
I find scenario one to be quite interesting because it focus on the position of the infielders and how their position affects an infield fly call or not.

If you make a call based on the position of the fielders before they break on the showing bunt and judged that the ball could have been caught by ordinary effort, then you would have an infield fly call.

If you are to wait and see if infielders change position up until the ball is batted, then you would not have an infield fly in scenario one.

Thoughst and guidance for ASA?

Thanks, Ron

youngump Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wadeintothem
No its probably not. This is the exact intent of IF is to prevent the easy double play. If a infielder can simply pick the ball up and make an easy weak sauce DP, then it probably can be considered "ordinary effort" to catch it. The IF should have been declared. Why? On an infield fly ball, the runners are holding. The rule is designed to protect them because they must hold.
Intent or not, by rule this is not an IF, because the only fielder nearby could not catch it with ordinary effort. Now, there's plenty of HTBT on this play, but as described the home plate umpire judged that the pitcher couldn't catch it. Doesn't matter how easy the double play is after that judgement. (Or how hard the double play if the judgement goes the other way.)
________
MARIJUANA SEED

IRISHMAFIA Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronald
I find scenario one to be quite interesting because it focus on the position of the infielders and how their position affects an infield fly call or not.

If you make a call based on the position of the fielders before they break on the showing bunt and judged that the ball could have been caught by ordinary effort, then you would have an infield fly call.

If you are to wait and see if infielders change position up until the ball is batted, then you would not have an infield fly in scenario one.

Thoughst and guidance for ASA?

Thanks, Ron
The infielder's position is irrelevant. The rule simply requires that an infielder be able to catch the batter ball with ordinary effort. No where is there any requirement or inference to the fielder's position other than it must be stationed in a position to defend the area of the infield.

ronald Fri Jul 25, 2008 02:33pm
thanks.

wadeintothem Sat Jul 26, 2008 04:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngump
Intent or not, by rule this is not an IF, because the only fielder nearby could not catch it with ordinary effort. Now, there's plenty of HTBT on this play, but as described the home plate umpire judged that the pitcher couldn't catch it. Doesn't matter how easy the double play is after that judgement. (Or how hard the double play if the judgement goes the other way.)
Doesnt matter that they didnt catch it...

Only matters that it is judged that it "could be caught with ordinary effort".

Thats exactly what you should judge on this play.

youngump Sat Jul 26, 2008 06:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wadeintothem
Doesnt matter that they didnt catch it...

Only matters that it is judged that it "could be caught with ordinary effort".

Thats exactly what you should judge on this play.
Not sure what you're trying to say here.

I had: how easy the resultant double play is doesn't matter if I judge they simply could not have caught it.

You said, 'Only matters that it is judged that it "could be caught with ordinary effort".'

Those read the same to me.
________
How to roll blunts

wadeintothem Sat Jul 26, 2008 07:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngump
Not sure what you're trying to say here.

I had: how easy the resultant double play is doesn't matter if I judge they simply could not have caught it.

You said, 'Only matters that it is judged that it "could be caught with ordinary effort".'

Those read the same to me.
Fix your judgment. That call should have been made from jump street.

The excuse you are making is the what you have to fall back on when the coach crawls up your but for not calling IF in an obvious to everyone on earth IF situation, thus costing him lead runners and a double play.

Youre supposed to learn from that though and next time call it so this goofy stuff dont happen. Thats why the rule is there.

I'm not a coach, I dont need the "yeah um I um didnt judge it to be able to um be caught with ordinary effort coach duh george. Yeah uh *cough *cough lets play ball now coach."

You didnt even see it the play and your judgements goofed up on it. :D


Havent you ever had this exact play, where you goofed up and didnt call it "ordinary effort blah blah"? I have. You learn from that.

This is what you do.. Less than two, pop fly.. any normal IF ball, you call it.

youngump Sat Jul 26, 2008 08:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wadeintothem
Fix your judgment. That call should have been made from jump street.

The excuse you are making is the what you have to fall back on when the coach crawls up your but for not calling IF in an obvious to everyone on earth IF situation, thus costing him lead runners and a double play.

Youre supposed to learn from that though and next time call it so this goofy stuff dont happen. Thats why the rule is there.

I'm not a coach, I dont need the "yeah um I um didnt judge it to be able to um be caught with ordinary effort coach duh george. Yeah uh *cough *cough lets play ball now coach."

You didnt even see it the play and your judgements goofed up on it. :D


Havent you ever had this exact play, where you goofed up and didnt call it "ordinary effort blah blah"? I have. You learn from that.

This is what you do.. Less than two, pop fly.. any normal IF ball, you call it.
I think I see what you're trying to say. Obviously you could use this as a cover. That's not what I'm trying to say.

In the OP, the runners shouldn't have needed to hold because it should have been as obvious to them as it was to the umpire that the pitcher wasn't going to get this ball. The easy double play results from this not from the umpire having bad judgment.
________
Laguna Bay II Condominium


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