Can this be true?
 

Men's slowpitch w/o stealing.

Pitcher recieves the ball back from the catcher. With ball in glove pitcher places his hand palm down onto the sand. Pitcher immediately goes to the ball. Is this now an Illegal Pitch?

Depends, did the sand stay on the ball?

Why?
 

In FP if a pitcher goes to the sand without wiping it off it is an illegal pitch.

Speaking ASA FP, no, that is black-letter rule with respect to licking the fingers, not a foreign substance in general. Otherwise, it is a judgment as to whether the foreign substance (dirt) was applied to the ball.

Maybe I misunderstood what you are trying to say but, 6-6-A says A defensive player shall not at any time during the game be allowed to use an foreign substance on the ball. It does say "a foreign substance".

Were you saying dirt/sand is not a foreign substance?

No, I was saying the the rule about it being an IP for failure to wipe off pertains to licking the fingers. Otherwise, the rule is to not apply the foreign substance to the ball. If a pitcher picks up a handful of dirt, tosses it aside, and does not wipe the hand before touching the ball, you have to decide whether that is a violation. Whereas, if a pitcher licks the fingers, does not wipe them off, and them goes to the ball, there is a direct rule that declares that an IP. It is a stupid rule (IMO), but there it is.

I honestly don't feel that sand/dirt is a foreign substance unless you're playing on an all-grass field. There's already going to be sand/dirt/dust on the ball from your ball bag, the fielders glove or the field itself. How can part of the field be a foreign substance?

If they just reach down and touch the dirt I don't necessarily have an issue with that (I will usually just quietly tell the P while I'm wiping the pitcher's plate to make some attempt to act like she' wiping her hand just to keep a coach from grumbling about something that is really nothing). If they pickup a handful of dirt and throw it on the ball or rub the ball on the ground to scuff it up then I go with the IP.

I think the rule is there to prevent an unnatural altering of the flight of the ball. Some pitchers will do anything to get that extra "edge," including licking their fingers (to get better grip - which I think is stupid), putting dirt on the ball (to give the ball a bit more "wobble"), etc.

Putting extra dirt onto the ball, in my opinion, would alter the characteristics of the ball during the pitch, and would give the pitcher an unfair advantage. Kinda like allowing the bat to be flat (and not passing the bat ring) would give an unfair advantage to the batter.

That's part of the issue. The rule forbids applying a foreign substance to the ball. To me, applying anything to the ball means placing it on the ball and it stays there.

Exactly. I'm surprised some umpires don't grasp exactly why this rule is there. The bottom line, to me, is that it temporarily "alters" the ball in a way that's favorable to the defense.

But dirt is not foreign to the ball. Spit is a completely different thing as is Vaseline or using sandpaper. :eek: Are we going to start making the pitchers wipe off the ball every time it touches dirt? If that's the case, I'd still be umping my very first game because that's how long a game will last. I can be given two brand new balls at the beginning of a game and prior to the first pitch of said game, I'm quite certain one of those balls has seen the ground and the other ball that's still in my ball bag is going to have some kind of "foreign" substance on it whether it's dust or residue from a dryer sheet. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying a pitcher can take the ball and rough it up in a pile of dirt that he/she has conjured up but if he/she puts some dirt one his/her hand and doesn't wipe their hand on their pants/shirt, I'm not calling IP because there's nothing in the rule book to back it up. Just so we're clear, IMO dirt is NOT a foreign substance and unless they're using mud, the dirt isn't sticking to the ball in any way that will change the flight characteristics.

mens slow pitch?

Of course you dont call this.

girls fast pitch...

find a way to tell her to stop it so you dont have to call it.

This is the same non call as some others I can think of.

What about women's slow pitch and men's fast pitch? ;)

too much other cheating going to worry about dirt on a ball in mens fastpitch.

JMO, but I think by and large the foreign substance rule can be completely ignored in girls FP. They are highly unlikely to be putting an "real" foreign substance on the ball, and neither a little dirt nor a little spit is going to materially alter the flight of the ball - the distance is too short and the ball is too large / heavy.

Besides, all good pitchers are also good at the pretend wipe off. Sometimes they might forget; sometimes I might just not notice.

A couple of general comments...

- Is dirt a "foreign substance" with respect to the ball? Sure it is.

Go buy a new ball. Open the package. Take the ball out. Look at it. Does it come with dirt already applied? Of course not. Since dirt is not a naturally occuring substance on a ball, it is indeed "foreign" to the ball.

- Does that mean that we have to replace the game ball with a fresh new one every time the game ball touches the dirt. Absolutely not!

Note that the rule specifically addresses the pitcher applying the foreign substance. It is the willful action of the player, in a possible attempt to gain an unfair advantage, that is illegal- not the substance itself.

Dirt, sand, dust, moisture or mud that gets on the game ball through normal game play (as opposed to a willful act by the pitcher) is incidental- not illegal.

However, the new ball also comes with a coating that is not meant to be retained and should be removed. Does that mean that since it was that way when the ball was removed from the wrapper, we force the pitcher to throw the ball as is?

No, because there is no rule against REMOVING a substance (foreign or not) from the ball! http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/te...smiley-009.gif

I'm not a veteran like so many of you, but what I have been taught is:

New balls presented at pre-game conference: Give the balls to the BU and have him/her rub dirt on them during the conference. Toss one into the circle and keep the other one.

New balls coming into the game: Have the coach throw it to the catcher, check the ball to see if it conforms, rub some dirt on the ball and then give it to the pitcher.

Applying foreign substance: Incidental dirt/chalk on the ball happens, but a pitcher (or teammate) applying dirt/chalk/moisture on a ball is illegal. Give them a warning the first time it happens (hopefully before they pitch the ball), and the next time call IP.

I've only called this IP once, on a pitcher who would take the chalk from the circle and rub it between her fingers and would wipe off the chalk onto her pant leg. Then she would lick her fingers and wipe the fingers off on the same spot on her pant leg. Not very smart, if you ask me. It was so obvious that her coach didn't even argue.

First, where does it say you give a warning for an IP?? Call it or don't call it, but don't warn them. That will bite you in the butt sooner or later!! When the other team's girl commits an obvious IP that coach will want the warning as well, and quite honestly he is justified in asking for the warning.

Now, if she wipes her hands I don't have an IP at all, not matter where she wipes it. She is doing what the rule states she has to do, wipe her hands.

Again, this only applies to applying saliva onto the ball. If, in the umpire's judgment, she is using this to apply a different foreign substance to the ball (in this case, chalk), then call the IP. The rule does NOT say the pitcher can put whatever crap she wants to on the ball so long as she wipes her hand while doing so.

I agree with your comment about the warnings. You're looking for trouble there. Although I have umpired in a tournament where the umpires were instructed to warn before calling IPs, but that was a rec-level tournament.

Yet it is done, routinely, with saliva and/or dirt/sand by an umpire or a team if the ball had been presented to the starting pitcher for pre-game warm-ups.

AFAIC, nothing has been applied to the ball if it isn't there when it reaches home plate.:rolleyes: