Canada v. USA
 

I was wondering, if they are playing by ISF rules, why are the umpires wearing ASA stuff? (Not completely official, since the shirts are pink due to breast cancer awareness.)

I was also wondering by those of you who know, is it true that under ISF FP rules you don't have to throw 4 pitches to issue a walk? If this is true, and not just a snafu on the talking heads part, doesn't it put the offense at a disadvantage since it basically prevents the chance to steal?

Also, did you see the IP that the PU called in the 3 inning? It looked to me, both on the initial pitch and the replay that the pitcher did pause before separating her hands. (Of course the TH's said something like "she needs to let the umpire know that she is going to do her pause before she takes her signal.")

I thought the IP on Abbott in the 1st inning was interesting. They were trying to say it had to do with a pause but it was clearly that she did not have contact with the pitchers plate.

Yes, in ISF a pitcher simply need announce to the plate umpire their intention to walk the batter and the umpire awards the batter first base.

Abbott has been illegal all year and it is so obvious, I fail to see why there has been no move to correct it.

I watched part of that game and was wondering where you can purchase one of those pink ASA umpire shirts. I'm sure our state UIC would allow us to wear them. :eek:

BTW, who was the PU? I wasn't impressed with her positioning. How could she possibly see the outside corner on a left-handed batter?

Here in Europe we play mostly unders ESF-rules, which are the same as ISF. At the clinics we get the ISF rulebook, which we have to use...

For an "Intentional walk" the pitcher has to announce, however mostly it is the coach who informs the catcher. Who has to tell the pitcher, who will tell the PU. So to speed up, we allow the coach and the catcher also to announce the Intenional.
At that point, call dead ball/time out and give the batter first base. Only runners advance if forced...
Don't forget to inform the official scorer!

For the umpire uniform: I don't think the game was under the ISF-flag. You can play by it rule-set, but the ISF sure didn't call the umpires to work this game. It's a friendly/practice game, not one in a ISF-tournament (such as Olympics or WorldChampionship). So the umpires can wear what they want...
Tomorrow (Sunday) Paddy and I will work a game between the Dutch Olympic-team against a Dutch Allstar team. Not under the ESF-flag, playing by the ISF-rules set, but we will wear our dutch uniform. But we can also chose to wear our ESF-uniform...

About Abbott's IP. I don't know, never saw her pitch. However before separating the hands F1 has to stand still for 2-5 sec's. The IP can be for violatiing this rule, not the full 2 sec's... So that would be a quick-pitch. I see that a lot with USA-pitcher who come over to Holland. The first view weeks you have to call IP frequently on them, after that they know an adjust...

That may be what it was, then. I thought that the pause just had to be one second mininmum as in most rule sets here in the states.

Its always nice when umpires are part of the show. :rolleyes: I think its fine for the players to do the auction thing. THe umpires should not have been made part of it.

And the PU's zone was pretty laughable .. and ever changing.

She was there...we wern't!!!!

Easy for you to be critical!!

I only watched a couple of innings, but I didn't see anything wrong with it while I was watching. What are you referring to?

They mentioned ISF rules a few times, so apparently it was under ISF. After all, two nations.
Was MS correct about the safety base in ISF, colored portion can't be used returning to the base after an overrun?
What about having to use it on any ball hit in the infield, rather than just when there is a play at 1st?

That's what MS said (she did not have contact ), but I have a problem with calling a repeated violation only once.

Lots of bordeline pitches, but I wasn't watching from the west. :p :)

Perception is 99% on televised games.

People watching it know.

Do we want credibility as a sport and as officials of a sport?

Or do we want people in pink with apparently roving strikes zones? As a fan of the sport watching it.. she was not consistent IMO. I think she squeezed at certain times in the game, situationally.

At least she equally pissed off both coaches.. so that was consistent.

I wondered that , too.

ISF Rule on Use of the Double Base:

NOTE: THE FOLLOWING RULES APPLY TO THE DOUBLE BASE:





EXCEPTION: On any live ball play made from first base foul territory, the batter-runner and the defensive player may use either base. When the defensive player uses the foul portion of the double base, the batter-runner can run in fair territory and if hit by a throw from the foul side of first base, it would not be interference. If intentional interference is ruled, the batter-runner would be out.






f) When tagging up on a fly ball, the fair portion must be used.

g) On an attempted pick-off play (FP ONLY) the runner must return to the fair portion.


h) Once a runner returns to the fair portion, should he stand on the foul portion only, it is considered not in contact with the base and the runner shall be called out, if 1) He is tagged with the ball, or 2) He leads off from the foul portion on a pitched ball.

NOTE: The double base must be used in ISF World Championship play.

A number of reasons from it is an ASA-sponsored event to ISF is very tight with their uniforms. A hat is one thing, but they are not going to give an umpire a shirt for a single-game event.

Hi socalump,

I thought the umpire at 3rd base handled an unusual situation very well. The sit I'm referring to was where a player advanced to 3rd base while another runner, who was in a rundown between 3rd and home, ended up coming back to 3rd. For a moment both were standing on 3rd. A tag came just after the runner got back to 3rd and the other runner, who didn't belong there, started running back to 2nd. I wish I recorded it because I thought I heard one of the commentators say something to this affect: "The tag didn't get the out because the other runner got off the base before the tag came, if they were both on the base she would have been out on the tag". If that is what she was saying she was wrong because the only one subject to being tagged out would be the player that was not rightfully on the base. ...Al

Most ISF-licened umpires do have 1 or 2 shirts from ISF. I still don't think the game wasn't organized by the ISF. They've played by it's rules. Which is logic, because in China they will also.

Just got back from my practice game Dutch Olympic team vs a dutch AllStar team. We also played by the ISF-rules, but the Dutch federation was the organizer. We've used out dutch uniform. (I'm not even ISF-licened, just got ESF-licened last year...)

ISF-rules 2006-2009

rule 8 sec. 4 d
Two runners may not occupy the same base simultaneously.
EFFECT 8.4d
The runner who first legally occupied the base shall be entitled to it, unless forced to advance. The other runner amy be put out, by being touched with the ball.

The runner who was chased back to 3rd base had legally touched the before the runner from 2nd, and couldn't therefor be tagged out. You're absolutly right!

Well, that's Traci. She's going to the Olympics.
And the 3BU... that's Lori. She is also going to the Olympics.

Just because she's going to the Olympics doesn't mean that I have to like her positioning. I felt she was way to far inside on those left-handed batters with a lousy view of the outside corner of the plate. I personally couldn't see how she could see it from her angle.

That's probably why you're in ND and she isn't.

Do I need to start talking sh!t about Washington? I guarantee I'll come up with more about WA than you will about ND.:D

But maybe if you are talking about specific umpires...your opinion, while yours, is insignificant?

This wasn't about me. Or WA. Or IL. Or ND. You asked about Traci. I was merely pointing out the fact that she's the one on TV that you're watching, not the other way around. There's probably a reason why she's there, and you're not.

Think about it.

Which catcher? If you are talking about Nuevy, you would be a bit inside too, because you are not going to go up when she sets up inside.

Didn't matter which catcher and even if the catcher were setting up for one down the pipe or to the outside, the PU was set up waaaaaaaaaaaaay inside on every left-handed batter.

Apparently we're not allowed to voice our opinions about Olympic bound umpires on this site without getting slammed.

Tow the line or get slammed.

So what....?

I think ASA has robotics, not mechanics, absurd uniform policies, and goofy thoughts on positioning which are rigid and cause poor positioning on many plays.

I've been slammed a 500 times by the company men for saying so.

no biggie.

When I'm on the field though, ASA writes the check and I perform my robotics nearly perfectly, study hard, and do what I'm told. They are the boss.

When I'm here, I'll say what I want. When the company men slam it, I dont pout.

I think you are full of $hit, myself. I'm still looking for the robots and I have yet to end up out of position due to an ASA mechanic.

See ND Blue?

Now I could pout about not being allowed to express my opinion about ASA Robotics..

But for what?

Its all for discussion and learning purposes.

Its thrashing the wheat from the chaff.

In 2 man,

WHen in B calling a DP, you should not be moving towards 1B while calling the out at 2B. Doing so can lead to missing dropped balls, out/safes quick calls, missing crash INT and other things.

You should be stationary and swiveling to 1B after the play completes at 2B.

Admit its a terrible mechanic.

If you've ever used that taught mechanic, you have been in wrong position for the call at 2B, because you should not be moving. That is absurd.

Strangely, that "bad mechanic" is exactly what they taught us at the NUS this year.

Its ASA's taught mechanic and creates a set of moving bouncing eyeballs watching a play..

It goes against the human anatomy and the way our eyes work and why you will see more missed calls out/safes on that play than any other.

The only time its good is when its routine.

if anything messes up at 2B, the mechanic lacks.

Nothing's "routine" at the ol' ball field. Just when you think it will be, something goes wrong.

I agree that stationary calls are better.

Point one, no one said you couldn't voice your opinion. I just simply voiced mine of what I thought of yours.

Point two, there is no issue with STEPPING toward 1B while watching the play at 2B. Again, you are making an excuse for what you consider a poor mechanic that thousands routinely execute with no problem. And if you missed a dropped ball at 2B, YOU did not properly execute the mechanic of which you are speaking since that mechanic teaches the umpire to stay with the ball. The only way you miss a dropped ball is by failing to stay with the ball. I submit your issue isn't the mechanic.

Stepping towards 1B isn't so much the problem. It's when an umpire turns his/her body away from the ball and towards 1B prematurely. Now, the umpire is looking over their shoulder and may lose the focus on the play. This is not something that was emphasized at the NUS.

The only time it is routinely executed is when it is routine. WHen I am PU I watch very closely because this poor mechanic is a goof up waiting to happen. When I am BU, I already know to be careful with this poor mechanic so I dont make that error. ANd yes I have learned by experience what a horrible mechanic this is.

And you are full of it.. the mechanic is to be moving towards 1B with your head turned towards 2B and your hand up in the hammer saying "out" Your body is moving one way, your call is made looking over your shoulder.

If you dont do that, then you admit I am correct. Because that is exactly what is taught. It is impossible to "stay with the ball" with this mechanic.

On plays at the plate.. Working inside the plate is terrible and you can easily be in the way... holding area up 3B like is ok on some plays and even necessary in 2man some times... both are inferier to 3Base line extended on plays involving extrabase hits where a swipe tag is probable.

PU should rarely ever go into the diamond when covering 3B. It is better to make the call from outside the line. You can get a great 90 from there. There is no need to come in to get a backwards 90 to 3B. It is inferior on 90% of calls from there and no benefit is gained which would out way the fact your back is turned on most of the players and the field and where the ball is coming from.

The advantage of PU going inside the diamond on calls at 3B is that if the throw's off, you're now out of the way of a potential play at HP. Also, if the runner reacts quickly to the errant throw, they may continue stride and round 3B. You're now in a good position to take them to HP, out of the way of a throw, and it's a shorter distance to get a good 90 on a tag at HP.

Youre not closer. How can you say youre closer? Are we measuring in in inches? There is no significant difference in distance.

You do make some valid points, although I dont think you are in the way of a rounding runner.

And does it out way the disadvantage of having a play develop behind you?

Outside the line it all developes in front of you. Inside the line you come up, tracking and turn following the play.

If you read it properly, you wont be there on a rounding play anyway, You dont need to be there. You need to be right there on a banger.

Let's say you get an errant throw to 3B, and the runner rounds the base. If you're inside the diamond, a 90 degree angle to the tag will probably put you in a line from HP to 2B. Continue that line. Staying inside will put you 2-3 feet closer to 3B than staying outside, especially if the runner hook-slides.

Yes, you won't have other plays in front of you, and that's a disadvantage. However, we're talking 2 umpire mechanics. The BU should be outside, keeping their responsibilities in front of them as well.

Inside-outside theory is just that - a theory. Built into the practice of that theory is the fact that you will often have runners at your back, but those runners should be covered by your partner. It's not perfect.

That's why it's a theory.

I dont think we are talking about the same positioning if PU is inline HP to 2B. I move a lot quicker than that. If I have a banger at 3 I am there, around 8 feet or so.

R1 @ 1B less than 2 outs, slow developing bunt, play is to 1B, you have play which is obviously developing at 3B. You can pause for the play at 1B pulled foot mumbo jumbo (another ASA flaw, this is not the priority the lead runner is), but you need to be moving up the line, the runner will be rounding by then. Now you have 2 seconds or so.

You should be right there when the play happens.

I have kept quiet on this one, mainly because I didn't see enough of the game to really know what you guys were talking about. However,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, what I did see of the PU looked ok to me. Sure it wasn't enough of a view to see if their positioning really agreed with the best expert I know, ME ;) .

Those who want to whine about ASA and their mechanics are not always wrong, Lord knows I have done enough of it over the years.
The difference with whining and working with it is that only the whiner feels better about it.
If you have an idea that things can improve, work with your UIC to get it to you Regional UIC and then the NUS.
I can say that I don't like some ASA mechanic techniques because I use them.
I can say that I don't like some ISF mechanics because I am an ISF umpire (number 119 on the US roster of ISF umpires), but I use them.

Some aspects of our umpire mechanics are indeed way to robotic for my personal taste but I have used them, WHY?
Well, I use them because I want to work Nationals, (37 in Modified, Slow and Fast) I use them because I wanted to become an ISF umpire, (accomplished in 2004).
If you have no goal, then work outside the system and you will get where you are.
If you are using the mechanics as an excuse for why you don't get a National assignment, well then that shows the real reason you whine.

As I have said, I have whined and I have bit**ed about some things, then I took the time to work with the NUS and others who had the ability to change things. I was heard on some things and changed my mind on some others and was disregarded on even other issues.

The point is I kept working at it.
Talk to Irish in privite and he will tell you he has heard from me in email and in person, gripes I have had.
The point is, the mechanics have been worked out with deliberate reason to fit a deliberate need for the general population of umpires. Some variation has always been allowed when legitimate need has been noted.

I personally could not spread as wide as the NUS wanted me to. I use a modified scissors stance to get low enough into the zones that as a 6'5" umpire is not always easy to do. When Merle worked with me, he asked why I did what I did, I told him and was able to show by game performance that my modification worked for me. I never heard him complain not one bit after that time. I had the same type of conversation with every UIC I had at Nationals, again with no beef at all.
Most of the old NUS and plenty of the present NUS have had the same converstion, with the same results.
Work with them and it will work out.
More than once, Henry used me as an example of a necessay modification of mechanics at national schools with no penalty to me or others.

I think your whining (and it is just that) is just a poor attempt to cover up your feelings of jealousy of inadequacy on your part.

So, put up or shut up I say.
Prove with diligent work that your ideas are correct with teamwork or be a stay at home umpire that won't go anywhere.

(BTW, that last paragraph is an exact quote that was given to me by Bernie when I was bit**ing at a national one time years ago.)

I agree that asa has a robotic type set of how you can and cannot do things.... but none of those umpires were using an ASA mechanic in any of their out calls if anything they were closer to NCAA.

On another note... the plate umpire may have been further in the slot then most yet she is the one going to the olympics and has obviously proved her self recently enough to obtain ISF and be selected to go to bejing so she had a bad game.. and she was on TV ... which sucks for her bc were all here ripping her... I bet if half you people ripping her worked that game you would have been just as (fill in the blank with whatever bad you were going to say here)

Not me!

I would have done much worse. :)

Same here :D

Especially since I only do SP.

Oh, believe me, I hustle my tail off, too! I've heard players yell at the end of the play, even if the call's against them, "nice hustle, blue! THAT'S what I like to see!"

Now, I've not seen the game this thread was originally discussing, and I was more or less skimming the conversation until now. What I'm referring to is my belief that the PU getting on the inside of the diamond on a tag play at 3B is not terrible positioning, and it has many times helped to set me up perfectly for calls at home plate when there is an errant throw. Another aspect that I didn't bring up is the fact that a runner coming from 2B to 3B is already rounding their path, and being on the inside of the diamond helps to get a better 90 on the tag at 3B. Staying on the foul side of the line does not give you that same angle.

You're only sliding over to your right by a foot or two, and you're setting yourself up for the next potential play. Let your partner worry about his/her runners and fielders.

It is impossible to "stay with the ball" with any mechanic unless making the call from across the diamond. No umpire is going to be able to refocus if they are moving their head with the ball.

The only part that I do not teach of the written mechanic is where the umpire is told to move quickly toward 1B.

This mechanic is not that much of a problem. Hasn't been in my 20+ years of softball and doubt it ever will be.

AFA the signal, it is secondary to the continuing play. I don't even think about it until the ball has left the defender's hand toward 1B while I'm waiting for that play to finish. There have been times that the play was turned so quickly, I didn't have time to make any signal, but I can guarantee, everyone heard the "out" call. If there is any possibility of confusion, after the sell on the play at first, I will turn back toward second, point at the base and give the signal.

Sorry you have a problem with it. Might I suggest a good school?

hey sweetie pie, you cant disregard teaching what is taught at NUS then pretend to support the mechanic.

NOw you must admit: wade is correct, and in fact this mechanic is so bad you cheat ASA and have invented your own mechanic.

At least when I teach, I teach ASA.

You should be ashamed of yourself. Go stand in a corner.

How do you do that without hurting yourself? You know, pat yourself on the back and je....nevermind. You are not worth the trouble.

I know, in your position you must kiss some but and say somethings wonderful while neglecting it in clinic because you secretly dont like it and admit its terrible. Bouncing eyeballs, you should pivot.. EXACTLY what I said.

I just plain out and out state its not a good mechanic.

You cant fault me for that.

You can go ahead and jump on the wadeygoodmechanicstrain. You aint gotta lie to kick it with me homey.

Perhaps the defining post in this topic. :rolleyes:

Well I finally got to watch this game last night. While I wasn't bothered by the zone all that much I was bothered by Michelle Smith breaking out one of her famous stupid clichés. "There are 3 strike zones, the pitcher's strike zone, the batter's strike zone and the umpire's strike zone". UGH! I can't believe that she believes the sh!t she's shoveling.

She's never worn our uniform.

At least she got the order right. Yours, mine... and the truth!

Besides, she forgot one... the catcher's strike zone! :eek:

Yeah, but only one counts :D

You are correct, one of the TH screwed that up, but what's new.

Personally, I thought there was way too much conversation on the play at 3B especially from a crew of this level. The call was a no-brainer. Candrea really showed his ignorance on this one, also, and that is not the norm for him.

Not impressed with Lapin on the dish. She plays the position like a 14 y/o.

Interestingly funny (accurate?)!! If that is a term!! :)