Respect for the Anthem
 

I attended the Long Island HS championships last week and have a question for my fellow umps. This was held at a typical softball complex. 4 fields facing N, S, E, and W with concessions in the middle. One game started on time and the others were about to start when the National Anthem was played over the loud speaker system.

All of the fans, as well as the teams whose games had not started stood in silence with hats off during the Anthem.

Except the game that was in progress. There was no attempt by either the 3 umps nor the coaches or players to stop and show respect for our national Anthem.

My question: When this happens to you, do you stop play and remove your hat until the Anthem has ended?

Yes. I would stop play as soon as the ball is in the circle, turn and face the flag, stand at attention, remove my hat and place it over my heart. Hopefully everyone else on that field would do likewise. <Insert a flag-waving smilie here>

I'm with argodad. At first opportunity I would have stopped play so respect for our National Anthem could be honored.

Why had the one game started before the National Anthem?

Without going into the discussion of whether it is the anthem or the flag which it accompanies is the target of the respect, this was poorly done by those in charge of the complex/tournament.

Yes, I would probably stop the game if possible. However, I would not be so harsh on the umpires which did not. I've seen other situations involving military officers which aggravated the hell out of the enlisted personnel, but that's life. You cannot get people to stop walking down an aisle at a game or shut up during the national anthem, what makes you think you can get girls to understand why you would stop the game?

You stop the game ASAP when the ball is in the circle.

Another no brainer.

Stop drinking that delaware water mike.

Do you ever bother reading just the words of another's post?

Too bad you weren't with me the last Armed Forces championship I worked where the base commander, wing commander and another ranking officer stood in the middle of the softball field, covered and in a relaxed posture during the presentation of the colors.

LOL, dont worry, I've done my share of standing around with base commanders standing in the middle of a field.. for hours on end at times.

A friend of mine came back from Kuwait with her unit sometime in 2004. Once they were on American soil, there was a little ceremony for them on base. Her first sergeant either got too caught up in his thoughts or was an idiot, and he forgot to give the order to salute the flag.

The local press got a hold of it, and turned it into, "this was to protest such a long deployment in Kuwait, blah blah blah..."

No, the dumb @$$ just slipped and forgot to give the order.

So...am I to understand that when I am working a HS or college softball game somewhere, and we have had all the player introductions, anthem playing...etc., and my game starts, I should stop my game when, 30 minutes later, on the adjoining baseball field, they once again play the anthem?

I dont know how its done where you are but this was described as a 4 park normal softball complex.

Now normally, how we do it in California is everyone BEFORE the first game lines it up on all 4 diamonds.

Now I was picturing that one of the diamonds started early.

That diamond needs to stop when the complex conducts its ceremony.


This truly is a no brainer.

How you do it in your state is up to you. How you do it on your diamond is up to you. My field is stopping.

National Anthem
 

I have had this happen to me before -- in fact a couple of times -- on complexes where they had a 2 story house surrounded by 4 softball fields

On many of these complexes the PA system is not set up to address all 4 fields -- or the speakers on 1 field are blown. So if you've got the field w/ poor or no sound -- and administration is relying solely on your hearing things rather than some coordinated effort by park admin, then Anthem playing, moments of silence, or even announcements of cars being towed can go unheeded

I've run into this many times at a high school sports complex with baseball and softball fields, football stadium and track, soccer field, and tennis courts.

On any given school afternoon it is normal to have a baseball game, softball game, track meet, and tennis meet. Each sport may have different starting times; different starting ceremonies. If, for example, our softball game has started when the anthem is played at the football field, we don't stop.

On the other hand, at most L.L. parks where several BB or SB games are starting at the same time, there is usually a single anthem broadcast to all fields. Of course, no games start until the anthem is finished.

WMB

I would say yes, if you can see the American flag from your field. If not, then it's your call. And believe me, I'm very picky when it comes to our country's flag. It's another one of my rants on my website. You'll never EVER see me burn one, and probably kick someone's a$$ for doing so.

My indoctrination is complete, every time I hear the National Anthem, I stop stand at attention and face the flag or the music (if there is no flag present). When I attend local games where the Flag is presented I stand at attention while the flag is presented until it has completely left the field or is properly cased. My actions are based upon the right and proper training from Boy Scouts and the USMC. I am also happy to report that many of my not so well trained friends and family have asked me what I am doing and have started to act in a like manner. At this tournament game management screwed up, but in my opinion so did the on field umpires. BUT ... wait for it ... here is the kicker. This is the USA where a display or lack of display of patriotism is each individuals own personal choice. While I clearly would have stopped the game if I was the PU, I would support and defend some scumbag's choice to not stop the game while the Anthem was played. Lastly members of the military who are properly covered need not remove their cap, but can actually hand salute when the colors are presented.

Bugg

Is being in a relaxed posture the same as a hand salute? ;)

You guys are making too much of this. I would rather guess the umpire crew didn't really know what to do, rather than guess they made a deliberate choice to not respect the flag / anthem.

Well, I can certainly appreciate the reverence given to our country's flag. It's a symbol that represents a country that love dearly, and I would gladly give it the honor it deserves. I don't think this is much ado about nothing - it's much ado about something.

I think it'd be readily apparent to all present that someone obviously screwed up when planning the start of the games. That said, if it's way off in the distance and completely out of sight, I'd say it's up to you. If you can see the flag from where you're at, and the music is obviously close, then you should give it the respect it deserves as soon as possible.

And yes, I'm one of those guys who gets pissed at store owners who hang the flag vertically, yet don't keep the stars in the upper left-hand corner... Or when people don't take their flags down during bad weather or at night (assuming they don't have proper illumination)... Or when people wear "flag clothing" like that jackass Richard Simmons.

Hey, I'm with you on this. When ASA some years back decided to put the flag on the umpire's hat, I went to our local ASA gear supplier and bought a couple of the remaining non-flag hats to try to ride through this. I didn't (and still don't) think putting a flag emblem where it is going to get soiled and sweat-stained is proper. Sadly, ASA continues to put flags on the hats, and my non-flag hats are starting to look too worn.

All I'm saying is screw ups happen. That doesn't make them members of the umpires underground terrorist movement.

I live near the college town of Princeton, New Jersey, where though the vast majority of people stand at attention during the national anthem or pledge of allegiance and show respect for the flag, you do see people who make a point of remaining seated and looking away from the flag, usually with a sour look on their faces. This usually happens at graduation ceremonies and the like, not ball games.

In some places (e.g., Detroit), the American flag has been removed from municipal buildings lest someone who hates America be offended.

I'm glad to say that I've never seen anyone remain seated or otherwise be disrespectful at any ball game I've been involved with.

C'mon, they don't count. Some Princeton (college) folk are so smart, they are stupid. :confused:

I'm sure you mean in a window or against a wall. Otherwise, the union would be to the North or East

This was my pet peeve when everyone thought if you didn't put a flag on you car antenna, you were unpatriotic. People do not have the knowledge or willingness to properly maintain a U.S. flag.

Which is one reason why I have a problem with it on any athletic uniform or cap, including ours (ASA).

Well, I think it was a knee-jerk reaction to 9/11. It was optional in 2002, but became mandatory in 2003.

Yes, that's what I was referring to. I was surprised to sit in the Cheers replica bar in Boston, only to find the American flag hung vertically against a wall with the stars in the upper-right. :mad:

I mean, come on. Boston! City that's RICH in American history! Hanging the flag wrong? Not cool.

I pulled our waitress aside and informed her of the mistake. She said, "wow... in all these years I've been working here, no one has ever pointed that out to me."

As a retired veteran in a very Military town I know that every time the Anthem is played the game is stopped.

Yes this is a pain when SB starts at 4 then Soccer at 430 then Baseball at 5, but we stop the game at the next break in action and wait for the anthem to be played. As long as they don't play the Whitney Houston version it only a takes a couple of minutes.

Three flag poles of equal height erected at the front of a business, flying an American flag, state flag and an organization. On which pole should the American flag be flying? I know the answer but the person in charge of the building disagrees with me. What are your thoughts? Dave

The flag poles shouldn't be of equal height. :p

Go on up there and measure, boy! ;)

Hmmm...I guess you would not approve of what I consider to be the prized possession in my jersey collection :

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/710...jersey1my9.jpg

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/4...jersey2lw3.jpg

Sorry boy, I don't have to measure them, I know for a fact they are equal in heighth. I realize they shouln't be the same heighth, but now that they are, there is a correct order they should be in. Dave

To be honest, I've never been sure what order they should be in. I would think the American flag would be in the center, but the other 2 flags would simply not be raised to the very top (stop 6" short, for example). The American flag must ALWAYS fly higher than any other flag.

I've asked around in the past, but never got a decent answer. I'm glad someone knows. So spill it! ;)

The American flag must ALWAYS fly higher than any other flag.

Except the flag of a church or other religious organization.

From the US Code:

§175. Position and manner of display

(c) No other flag or pennant should be placed above or, if on the same level, to the right of the flag of the United States of America, except during church services conducted by naval chaplains at sea, when the church pennant may be flown above the flag during church services for the personnel of the Navy....

(e) The flag of the United States of America should be at the center and at the highest point of the group when a number of flags of States or localities or pennants of societies are grouped and displayed from staffs.

Source: http://www.usflag.org/uscode36.html#175

From the same site:

Source: http://www.usflag.org/flagetiquette.html

I saw a LTC nearly blow a head gasket when the ROTC cadets mistakenly lowered the American flag first, then the cadre flag. :eek:

Another pet peeve of mine is the flag flying at half-staff without the proper authorization.

If circumstances do not allow for the American flag to be flown higher than others, the American flag should be flown so no other flags are to the American flag's own right, which would be to a persons left when they approach the flags. Dave

Who would give such authorization ?

I'm a member of a private golf/tennis club. It's membership is getting pretty grey in the hair. SO we have lots of oldtimers passing. They always have the flag at half-staff for members that have died. Does it matter if they were military vets ?

I believe only the President or governor of your state can give such authorization for such a display of our nation's flag.

I hate to say it, but the club is kinda... going against the grain.

I dunno about that. I dont take mine down in the rain or any other bad weather. You'll always see a flag flown on rainy days on base. It flys 24 / 7.

Maybe thats a myth, I've heard it before, but I never saw it lowered in bad weather on any military base I was on so I dont lower mine.

Only when in uniform, jarhead. :) You do not salute while in civilian clothing. As a veteran of the United States Navy (and scouts), I was also indoctrinated into the proper procedures when our National Anthem is played and/or colors are presented. When in civilian attire, you will remove your cover if covered and place it over your heart in your right hand (or left if disabled).

About the flag, it doesn't get lowered during inclement weather unless the wind is so strong, it would take the flag pole out of the ground and the flag would get soiled by touching said ground. My flag flies 24/7 as it is properly illuminated at night. It flies during blizzards and wind storms as I'm not worried that my pole is going anywhere. It's withstood 70 MPH winds so far with no issues.

When I was the Communications Officer on USS TALBOT in the 1970s we received an addition to our flag bag -- a Jewish church pennant, with a Star of David in place of the cross. My first thought was that it made sense to have one to fly during Jewish prayer services. Then our Jewish commodore pointed out that Jewish prayer services begin at sundown -- and that we only fly flags at sea from sunrise to sundown. The new pennant was never hoisted.

So just checking up on this.

So flying the flag in bad weather is okay ?

Flying the flag at night is ok as long as it is properly lighted ?

Is there a standard for when a flag needs to be replaced, for example when it becomes ragged around the edges ?

New law allows Saluting in Civilian Clothes by Vets
 

Congress passed a law last year where Veterans are allowed to salute the flag in civilian clothes if they so desire.

Just out of curiosity, how do you determine the flag's own right?

No they didn't. It was only passed by the House, never by the Senate, so it didn't become law.

You determine the flag's own right the same way you do a persons. My right is just that, my right. If for some reason someone says you cannot stand or place anything to my right, that is to the right of me or to someone who is approaching me from my front, to their left. Same thing for a flag. Dave

My question was, which way is "front"?

You better reread your post. Your question was how do you determine a flag's own right, not how do you determine front? Dave

What's up with you? What your right side is next to is determined by which way you are facing. A flag pole is round; it has no front or back, left or right.

Three flag poles are all in a row. Which one is on the flag's OWN right?

It was a simple question. Not being steeped and studied in the somewhat symbolic flag code (meaning it has no force of law), which way is front? And from that, which way is the right side?

I'm not challenging anything; just asking a simple question. If the proper place for the flag in a row of flags is determined by the flag's OWN right, which side is that and how do I know?

This is from a website that desribes flag etiquette. I bolded what I was trying to say, I didn't mean to make it too hard. Dave

Displaying the Flag Outdoors
When the flag is displayed from a staff projecting from a window, balcony, or a building, the union should be at the peak of the staff unless the flag is at half staff.

When it is displayed from the same flagpole with another flag - of a state, community, society or Scout unit - the flag of the United States must always be at the top except that the church pennant may be flown above the flag during church services for Navy personnel when conducted by a Naval chaplain on a ship at sea.

When the flag is displayed over a street, it should be hung vertically, with the union to the north or east. If the flag is suspended over a sidewalk, the flag's union should be farthest from the building.

When flown with flags of states, communities, or societies on separate flag poles which are of the same height and in a straight line, the flag of the United States is always placed in the position of honor - to its own right.
..The other flags may be smaller but none may be larger.
..No other flag ever should be placed above it.
..The flag of the United States is always the first flag raised and the last to be lowered.

The only flag rule I know of that I dont follow is I decide when my flag is to half staff. I have a full sized and illuminated flag pole. CA orders it lowered every time a soldier is killed (which is politically motiviated IMO and a slight anti war gesture and I wont do it), I have seen it lowered for police, politicians I cant stand, etc. I'll decide, regardless of who orders it. I'm not going to run out to my flag pole every time some socialist California politician kicks the bucket.

I lower it on Memorial Day, Sept 11, and a few other times a year or if something real significant happens (like when Reagan died I kept it lowered the whole time or I lowered it when the Prez ordered it re the Pope). Its mine so thats I how I do it.

WASHINGTON, D.C. - U.S. Senator Jim Inhofe (R-Okla..) today praised the passage by unanimous consent of his bill (S.1877) clarifying U.S. law to allow veterans and servicemen not in uniform to salute the flag. Current law (US Code Title 4, Chapter 1) states that veterans and servicemen not in uniform should place their hand over their heart without clarifying whether they can or should salute the flag.

“The salute is a form of honor and respect, representing pride in one’s military service,” Senator Inhofe said. “Veterans and service members continue representing the military services even when not in uniform. “Unfortunately, current U.S. law leaves confusion as to whether veterans and service members out of uniform can or should salute the flag. My legislation will clarify this regulation, allowing veterans and servicemen alike to salute the flag, whether they are in uniform or not. “I look forward to seeing those who have served saluting proudly at baseball games, parades, and formal events. I believe this is an appropriate way to honor and recognize the 25 million veterans in the United States who have served in the military and remain as role models to others citizens. Those who are currently serving or have served in the military have earned this right, and their recognition will be an inspiration to others.”

This Bill was passed July 25, 2007. Please let your veteran friends know about the passage of this Bill.

What an AWESOME law. That is so very true. They are all veterans or servicemen or women regardless of what they are wearing. Dave

Personally, I don't care for it. And yes, I am a vet.

I "misremembered." It was passed by the Senate last summer, but not by the House. This is from the GovTrack.us website:

This bill has been passed in the Senate. The bill now goes on to be voted on in the House. Keep in mind that debate may be taking place on a companion bill in the House, rather than on this particular bill. [Last Updated: Jun 15, 2008]

So it still isn't a law.

We have a lot of vets in our association, so we've followed the discussion pretty closely.

Come on Mike, elaborate on your position. Don't leave us hanging since we all respect your opinions, at least the ones where you explain your stance on something. Dave

Rules for Rendering Hand Salute of U.S. Flag
New Law Allows Retirees and Vets to Salute Flag
The National Defense Authorization Act of 2008 contained an amendment to allow un-uniformed servicemembers, military retirees, and veterans to render a hand salute during the hoisting, lowering, or passing of the U.S. flag. The amendment does not address saluting the flag during the playing of the national anthem, pledge of allegiance, honors (i.e. Taps), or any other saluting situations.

Excerpt from H.R. 4986:

SEC. 594. CONDUCT BY MEMBERS OF THE ARMED FORCES AND VETERANS OUT OF UNIFORM DURING HOISTING, LOWERING, OR PASSING OF UNITED STATES FLAG.

Section 9 of title 4, United States Code, is amended by striking “all persons present” and all that follows through the end of the section and inserting the following: “all persons present in uniform should render the military salute. Members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute. All other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, or if applicable, remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Citizens of other countries present should stand at attention. All such conduct toward the flag in a moving column should be rendered at the moment the flag passes.”


Argodad,

You are correct about saluting during the National Anthem. What changed was saluting while HOISTING, LOWERING, OR PASSING OF UNITED STATES FLAG.

Thanks for keeping me on my toes.

Strike4

Anyone know what the ORIGINAL civilian salute of the flag during the pledge and anthem was and when and why it was changed to the hand over the heart? (This is a test.)

I just don't care for it. IMO, a hand salute is for persons in uniform. Just a personal opinion, but thank you for caring.

Sticks in my mind that it was a raised hand, and it was changed in the late 1930s because it was too much like the Nazi salute. Or am I misremembering again?

You got it. Also known as the "Roman Salute" before the Nazis and Italian Fascists ruined it.

As a vet, I don't like the bill or law one bit. I think rendering a hand salute in civilian attire looks stupid and is disrespectful to the ones still in uniform.

Just because a bill passes the Senate does not mean it is a law. It must also be passed in the House and then signed by the president. (Or not signed by the president, which according to rules may either become law without signature or be a "pocket veto." Look it up yourself if you're that interested.)

I know MANY vets who don't like it -- hence its lack of passage from the house. MANY vets believe one should be in uniform for saluting. This is according to the top aide for a Member of Congress from CA.

Bob,
Do you take off those goggles? :D
Sorry, had to ask buddy. Hope your season is going well.

Our Flag may be flown at night only if fully illuminated.

Our Flag may be flown in inclement weather only if weather resistant fabric (e,g, nylon, not cotton)

Our Flag should be replaced when there is any visible damage or wear.

Flying our Flag at half-staff is only authorized by the order of the President or a Governor for the Governor's State and must be done as ordered.


This is about civilians, not military posts, ships at sea, combat areas, etc.

Dave,
Saw a great bumper sticker just today, "If you want to burn a flag, wrap yourself in it first."

re: hand over heart.

You guys are correct. It originally resembled the Nazi salute (as stated, actually called the Roman salute). The civilian salute was changed by President Roosevelt because it looked too much like the Nazi salute.

Awesome! I'll provide the gasoline.

Rick Monday is still one of my heroes for tackling the dude trying to burn the flag.

At $4.53 a gallon, you're quite generous!

Another fun fact: The US Army's 45th Infantry Division had the swastika on their shoulder patch until 1939, when they changed the insignia to the Thunderbird. For some reason they figured it wouldn't be such a good idea to continue wearing the swastika.

I don't care if it's $10/gallon. Don't burn my flag!