Are you seeing metal cleats in summer play?
 

This past week was the first tournament (USSSAA) since high school play ended in this area. Sure enough, there were several U16 teams with metal cleats. I took the issue to the TD and he decided to let them play. (Hard to eject every team member, and some teams were 30 to 50 miles from home.) Scary liability issue.

Actually, my experience with a full H.S. season and now one tournament weekend, is that metal cleats are not a safety issue. I am aware of zero injuries. Still - when it is against the rules and you're letting them play, you have to feel some concern.

So - how many of you have faced this issue? How have you, or the TD's handled it?


WMB

Actually had a very tough situation this weekend... tournament. I'm standing there watching the pitcher warm up (2nd inning).. she is gardening the circle... Metal Cleats. "Rule changed they are allowed this year blue etc etc etc etc"... short stop metal cleats. I tell the coach he needs to get em all legally equipped if I catch one after this they are ejected.

The right fielder also has metal cleats

Ok so pitcher starts changing her pegs from metal to plastic, ss puts on street shoes (coach comment "be careful out there, hopefully this doesnt get you hurt"), RF has another pair of cleats.

Waiting. Other coach starts complaining that this real tournament etc. To be honest, I wasnt sure what to do.

So I started calling balls. One walk and 3 balls on the next batter and pitcher is in the circle.

That team of course loses by 2 runs.

It is really starting to suck.

Speaking USSSA:

Rule 2.4A:...Metal cleats and metal toe plates are prohibited in the 8 and under thru the 18 and under, including 18 and under major division. PENALTY: Metal cleats is a serious offense and results in the offender being ejected. Metal toe plates must be removed prior to continuing play.

I believe ASA has a similar ruling. I've yet to see a problem with any on the tournament teams wearing metal cleats in this area. However, I didn't see any metal cleats during the spring high school season, so this is probably just a carry over from that.

Ejecting 3 players wasnt happening. To do so in reality at a regular tournament would have been big trouble. I did seek out TD but of course, no where to be found.

We've had minimal issues with it. We see it, then tell them they can't wear metal in ASA... they change shoes. No big deal.

However, I've been reminding coaches at the pre-game about it now. I just mention that, "as a reminder, no metal cleats are allowed today. If your players have them on, they need to change. If we find a player with cleats, they'll not be allowed to play until they remove them from their feet." It fixes itself at that point.

Was this not an official suspension of play? That is the way I think I would have handled it.

Two weeks ago in Rock Hill, SC a player was wearing metal cleats. Games were being played under ASA rules. TD just had her switch to tennis shoes since she did not have other cleats.

I definitely do agree with that,

Is it possible that this sounds arbitrary or temporary, as opposed to "no metal cleats are allowed under XXX rules"?

actually, I could have walked 10 batters in the amount of time this took probably. I had to do something.. they sat there screwing and unscrewing cleats things, digging in bags, whimpering. The other coach was the offended party and was definitely complaining after about 5 mins. I did not stop the clock. Like I said, I did not know really what to do. How is this an official suspension of play? I dunno, maybe you are right!

LUCKILY it was pool play but still, I will be talking to my bosses and finding out what they want done.

Saw this situation this weekend.

What a mess and such a time waster.

At the point the blue noticed metal cleats he called the coaches together and instructed the coaches to have all metal removed. At that point the entire infield left the field to change, borrow and steal rubber cleats. Later in the game one of the coaches made a pitching change. Before the pitcher could warm up the pitcher leaving had to change shoes with the incoming pitcher.

I really would like too see ASA, have penalties, similar to high school, for non compliance with certain rules, i.e. jewelery, metal cleats, batting helmets without straps, etc.

Currently the girls will try and get away with these infractions as long as possible as there is no penalty.

ASA does have a penalty for anyone who violates the rules after a warning. It is a forfeit and that is something you would like to avoid.

NSA has an ejection. Also an out if found on offensive

I agree that a forfeit should be avoided whereever possible. I would think that in a tournament where forfeits need to be approved by the UIC and tournament director, that no such forfeit would be approved for metal cleats or jewelery.

That is why I would like to see another form of penalty, like the high school penalty, restrict the head coach and player to the bench for the remainder of the game.

Even that is going to be heavy handed.

The response I got from my higher up

"You didnt notice it before the game?" :rolleyes:

I'll bring it up at the board meeting I guess. I'm not going to press it if I'm going to get dumb answers like that. Obviously ASA was ill prepared for what everyone knew was going to happen... well except ASA.

You shouldve ejected the players not only is it a rule with an effect .... but that wouldve got your tournement director over there in a hurry ;)

Ill-prepared for what?

ASA made no changes and should not have to go out of their way to accommodate people who are not smart enough to know in what tournament/league they are participating.

Stupid is as stupid does.

Yes they do. We deal with a lot of teams that "are not smart enough"... and it was predicted many times this would happen. There is absolutely no guidance on how to handle it. I'll be working a huge 18G NQ next week. What do I do? what ever I get told to do, it wont be out of the rule book.. since there is nothing there.

I believe Wade is correct. Actually, this was even foretold by Nostradamus in one of his last, and most obscure, quatrains. I believe it went something like:

The one with the four letters shall deviate from the palindrome with three,
On the dusty field of combat young women will don blades on their feet,
The one in blue shall wade in to them proclaiming the laws are not set forth,
And he shall be made to take the heat.

Rule 3, Section 6

...If a player is requested by the umpire to remove jewelry, illegal shoes or illegal parts of the uniform and they refuse, the player will not be allowed to play.

Handle it exactly like you would the jewelry rule. If they don't comply with your request, they can't play. No ejection, just not allowed to participate. If they want to play, they will comply.

"Coach, player A can't play until she complies with the rule. Who is going to replace her?"

I have to agree that it is not ASA'a fault for maintaining the status quo, and to put the blame on them just doesn't make sense. As MNBlue states above, if they don't comply with the rules, then they don't participate. As far as I am concerned this is really a non-issue.

Thanks Bob. That's a keeper. :cool:

Thats a very nice rule when it takes two seconds to remove an ear ring..

What if they agree and 10 minutes later, they are still agreeing, changing the cleat things on the bottom of their cleats, digging in their cars and bags looking for cleats or shoes.. etc.. but the other coach is not so agreeing that get as long as they want to agree and the game is a time limit game?

That is pretty good :D

"Coach, who is your sub for player A?"

It mentioned wade, but said nothing about the girls sprawled on the ground, crying. :eek:

I am surprised at you, wade. You've made this claim a couple of times about no guidance on how to handle it. Phooey. It is illegal equipment, treated the same as any other illegal equipment (other than a bat). Remove it from the game. If the player refuses to remove it from the game, that player cannot play. Simple. No ejections. No threats. No need to get official rulings from higher ups. No ejections. No forfeits (unless the player refusing to remove the cleats makes the team drop below 8 players).

I truly do not understand all the drama here.

Actually, the rule book specifically states that such action results in a forfeit. Play under the given rules or go home. Like it or not, that is exactly what the teams agree to when they sign their roster and enter a tournament.

However, as previously stated, that is something that should be avoided and used as an absolute last resort in dealing with a problematic team.

I have no problem just sitting the player until the proper footwear is attained and worn. A little lecture to the coach about how he just avoided forfeiting the game due to your generosity might be in order if the umpire feels it necessary to get a point across.

YOu might want to read what I said because I already said they agreed.. they just took forever.



To keep saying "yada yada yada if they refuse remove them from the game" is useless.

And no one is allowing a forfeit... so some real rules and guidance certainly would be nice.

This team was 9+1 sub with their only pitcher having metal cleats and other players with metal cleats.

Its not a drama, its a situation that was handled by making up rules because ASA doesnt have a usable rule.

That is just plain not true. The ASA rule says the players are not allowed to play with illegal equipment. If the team cannot field a team of legally equipped players, they forfeit the game.

If forfeits are not allowed, the problem is with those who disallow the forfeits, not with the ASA rules.

Oh, I forgot... you Cali boys all think "ASA" is the same as your local HMFICs. ;)

So I take it you disagree with ASA needing a new metal cleat rule since their current rule is so wonderful?

I.e. Go ahead, walk on the field with them, play with them until caught, then when caught by the umpire, get told to go change them... go to the dugout and change them come back on the field.

Thats your idea of a good rule?

I disagree.. that is not a good rule.

They should
A) Legalize them.
(preferred)

B) create a usable rule.

Metal spikes are legal, just not for JO ball. I don't disagree that the higher level of JO competition should be permitted, but that's it.

I believe the rule is fine.

If I were still in the Navy, I think this would be described as a ZBM-2.

So, Wade, can we also assume that ASA also needs a new jewelry rule? It would seem that the same ruling applies, even though it hasn't changed, either, and hasn't been a major issue for years. Same options, just legalize all jewelry, or create a "usable rule"?

Can I assume you do pregame bat checks? Is it difficult to mention to a coach or other team representative at that time that this is ASA rules, and remind them that metal cleats are not allowed? If they already took care of it, no issue; if they didn't, this would give them a few minutes before the start of game time. After that, no pity at all; run the clock, call delay balls or strikes, or forfeit if necessary, you gave them every opportunity.

Still, not ASA's issue; there has been no rule change there, teams should know what the rules are when they show up.

wade, I have no opinion on whether ASA should legalize metal in some divisions of JO ball, but to blame this on ASA is just silly.

If there is a problem, it is with coaches / players who are trying to get away with wearing what the know to be illegal equipment (and I don't for a minute think they don't know - since metal is illegal in ALL sanctions except NFHS for 18U and below) and gutless pretend TD's and UIC's who refuse to allow umpires to enforce the rule.

It has NOT been a problem here, so far, and I don't expect it to become one.

If it is a problem there, merely remind the coaches during their warmups, etc., that metal is not allowed and please be sure none of their players are wearing them. If they show up at the plate wearing them, send them back to the dugout to change - tell them they have 10 seconds ... tick, tick, tick.

Would it be easier for umpires if metal was legal at 14U and above like for the boys? Maybe. But that doesn't mean the rule is unusuable.

Unless, of course, your local authorities are making it unusuable by not allowing it to be enforced.

Well I guess we'll have to wait and see if ASA thinks there has been any problems and chooses to address the metal cleats or if you guys are correct and there is no problem. It very well could be that metal cleats showing up in JO ball is limited to my area... if you guys arent seeing it and arent having a problem.

As a general statement, I'd like to see NFHS and ASA get back in sync with high school and 16U / 18U rules for pitching plate distance and equipment. I expect they will eventually, but there are entrenched interests in both organizations (opposing metal in ASA; opposing 43' in NFHS).

Maybe we should remind the NFHS the boys pitch from 60' 6". ;)

Nah, better not, or NFHS would have the girls pitching from 2B! :D