When are they out?

[DaveASA/FED]

Ok lets say we have a timing play, BR being tagged at 2nd while R1 is attempting to score with 2 outs. As BR is sliding into 2nd R1 is a step from home, hard slide BU is waiting to see the ball is still controlled....R1 touches home then BU sees control of the ball and comes up with a sell out.

So I ask when is the out an out for the timing of the run scoring? When the tag is first made....or when the BU verifies control was maintained? In this case that difference would mean a run scored or it didn't.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

Ok lets say we have a timing play, BR being tagged at 2nd while R1 is attempting to score with 2 outs. As BR is sliding into 2nd R1 is a step from home, hard slide BU is waiting to see the ball is still controlled....R1 touches home then BU sees control of the ball and comes up with a sell out.

So I ask when is the out an out for the timing of the run scoring? When the tag is first made....or when the BU verifies control was maintained? In this case that difference would mean a run scored or it didn't.

It's when the tag is made, not when the out is called.

[DaveASA/FED]

I agree with you but how do you know? If you are PU you are watching the runner and F2 for possible OBS, trying to watch the play at 2nd some but you don't know when the tag it made, you can hear when the out is called....never thought of this before but how do you know when that happens? If BU is doing what they should they are inside on a throw from outfield watching the tag so they can't see if the runner has hit the plate yet, and PU is blocked from the tag by the BU, BR and maybe even a couple of fielders.

[argodad]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

Ok lets say we have a timing play, BR being tagged at 2nd while R1 is attempting to score with 2 outs. As BR is sliding into 2nd R1 is a step from home, hard slide BU is waiting to see the ball is still controlled....R1 touches home then BU sees control of the ball and comes up with a sell out.

So I ask when is the out an out for the timing of the run scoring? When the tag is first made....or when the BU verifies control was maintained? In this case that difference would mean a run scored or it didn't.

We teach our umpires to yell "TAG" in the case of a potential timing play, then follow through with normal timing of finding the ball and selling the "OUT" call. That helps the PU determine the run counts or run doesn't count question. (Of course, if the BU calls "TAG ... SAFE," the run scores even if the tag was prior to touching the plate.)

[DaveASA/FED]

Well that has it's advantages in this case....but I don't like that mechanic as it has the possibility of making the BR think they are out. I could see the BR starting to get up thinking they are out and the fielder picking up the ball and tagging them in the confusion, before you could get safe out after seeing the dropped ball. I have always seen (or heard) "tag" followed by out, almost a clarification of why they are out, this would be the only downside I see to what you are suggesting. And that would be confusing....you would hear "tag" (see dropped ball) "Safe" (Fielder tags runner off bag, who thought they were already out) "Out". thats almost a triple call isn't it??

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

I agree with you but how do you know? If you are PU you are watching the runner and F2 for possible OBS, trying to watch the play at 2nd some but you don't know when the tag it made, you can hear when the out is called....never thought of this before but how do you know when that happens? If BU is doing what they should they are inside on a throw from outfield watching the tag so they can't see if the runner has hit the plate yet, and PU is blocked from the tag by the BU, BR and maybe even a couple of fielders.

I think you are worrying too much about this. It isn't like you are a hundred yards away, the field isn't that big.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I think you are worrying too much about this. It isn't like you are a hundred yards away, the field isn't that big.

Agreed. HP to 2B is what? 91', 11"? It's not that far for us to make a reasonable judgment call.

[argodad]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Agreed. HP to 2B is what? 91', 11"? It's not that far for us to make a reasonable judgment call.

Only for you 65' base slow pitch people. On a 60' diamond, it's even closer.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by argodad

Only for you 65' base slow pitch people. On a 60' diamond, it's even closer.

Yeah, but if that's the longest distance, you see where I'm going with that.

And that's the only HP to 2B distance I can remember without looking up.

[NYBLUE]

There is a signal (2 fingers across the wrist) that I assumed most of umpires used to indicate runner(s) in scoring position with 2 outs.
Recieving and mirroring this signal prior to the pitch or AB reminds:
- The BU to vocalize his out immediately when the tag occurs
- The PU to listen for the BU's out while watching the runner attempting to score.

Do many of you know of and/or use this signal?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by NYBLUE

There is a signal (2 fingers across the wrist) that I assumed most of umpires used to indicate runner(s) in scoring position with 2 outs.
Recieving and mirroring this signal prior to the pitch or AB reminds:
- The BU to vocalize his out immediately when the tag occurs
- The PU to listen for the BU's out while watching the runner attempting to score.

Do many of you know of and/or use this signal?

I am aware of it, but don't use it. I do not consider it necessary. I also do not rely on sound. The mechanic is unreliable and cannot replace watching the play.

[bkbjones]

I use the "timing" signal, but will rely on sight above all else. I also loudly proclaim "tag," but use it anytime I have a tag, no outs, one out, two outs, first out, last out...

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by bkbjones

I use the "timing" signal, but will rely on sight above all else. I also loudly proclaim "tag," but use it anytime I have a tag, no outs, one out, two outs, first out, last out...

Yeah, me too.

[snorman75]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I am aware of it, but don't use it. I do not consider it necessary. I also do not rely on sound. The mechanic is unreliable and cannot replace watching the play.

First GREAT question.

For me I do not vocalize the tag, but the hand does go up while I ask, or wait to see the ball. Because if I asking or looking it is going to be out, unless the ball is out, then they are safe because of that, and everyone will know.

I do agree if you have it lined up from home you know when the tag is made, and you should be able to tell what the timing is.

I do not like relying on my parts verbal call on a timing play. So I always line it up so I can visualize it too.

[NCASAUmp]

If you know you're going to have this kind of timing play, line yourself up to see the timing. The holding zone may not afford you this kind of angle, so you may want to shade closer to the plate.