Game really a runaway. Visitors leading by touchdown and
safety..Hometeam batting in bottom of 5th. One out one on,
batter hits one well out of the park. In running the bases
she is leaping, jumping, missing 2B and removes her helmet
between 2nd and 3rd. When she crosses the plate and new
ball placed into the game, pitcher properly appeals that the
second runner missed second. I am plate so advised the BU
of appeal. Naturally he did not see it. Then the defensive
coach ask me "since the batter removed her helmet in
live ball action, and you issued them a previous warning,
isn't she out?" "No coach, at the end of playing action I
will restrict her to the dugout and get a replacement."

My question is, "How many of you would have <b><i>Looked the other
way</b></i> on the home run? After the game, My partner
said he saw clearly that the runner had missed second and
was not about to take away from her expereience of
<font color = red>belting one out of the park</font>

Really wondering what I would have done! I have always tried
to adhere to the rules regardless, but may be food for some
thought in this situation. Nah, you can't look the other way.
I am sure he made her day though. Makes me wonder what she
would have thought of my call??? :rolleyes:

How would you have handled this?

BTW That was the only runs that they scored.

glen

Your partner needs to get out of umpiring and get into coaching. Unless his name is Fred Rogers, he is not on that field to make sure everyone in the neighborhood feels happy.

Did he accept money to blatantly NOT do his job? If that team came back to win the game? Do you think your partner would have been stupid enough to open his mouth and tell you he intentionally let it go?

Everyone on this board knows I'm anal about the rules, but that is because there are TWO teams paying for you to be on that field and both deserve the most professional game you can give them. Your partner may have thought his gesture was harmless, but you are out on the field with him and there are people who know he kicked the call. Intergrity, and the lack of it, usually seems to be contageous even if only by association.

No Mike, Glen wanted to know how you really feel

Just kidding, I would have to agree I would call the out might not feel too good about it but the kid will always know she hit it over anyway that is what really mattered


JMO

Don

I gotta make this call. My integrity is worth more to me than any "feel good" outcome.

Regarding the helmet, the ASA casebook clarifies that since the intent of the rule is to prevent injury, if there is no play possible, there is no infraction. Quoting from the RULING section on a play where a runner removed his helmet while running the bases on a home run (play 3.5-7)

<font color=blue>... Runners should not be called out for removing the helmet on a home run that is hit out of the park.</font>

Add my agreement, too. On the topic of rules, integrity, and so on - there are some rules and interps that I really do not like. And that's in all sanctioning bodies. Problem is, the powers that be didn't care what I thought when the rules were written. So if I want to work a Fed game, I'd better call it according to their rules - same for ASA, NCAA, and everyone else. I'm not there to make a player feel good or even to make things right or fair. I'm there to call the game according to the rules.

With the helmet removal, I think Fed is a bit different, so the warning or restriction would be warranted there.

same principle
 

Last year in a Fed softball game I called a girl out for missing third on a home run. Her team was way ahead, too. The girl was ecstatic, her parents were cheering, the other girls were all hugging her. But the defense appealed--what else could I do?

But a lesson might be drawn from another play: also last year, when Fed baseball still had their non-appeal appeal, a runner failed to touch home. I wasn't going to say anything, because his run made the score 7-1 in the top of the 5th. But I heard the defensive coach say, "Jimmy, appeal home." So since there were no appeals, I just called the runner out. I felt bad for the kid.

However, the final score of that game was 7-6, with the last out at home plate on an attempt at an inside-the-park home run. Ignoring the infraction could have changed the outcome, even though it didn't seem likely at the time.

Ditto here as far as enforcing the rules. I, too, am wondering how your partner can justify accepting his pay at the end of the day when he knows that he conciously chose not to do the job that he is being paid for.

Scott

Sorry, your partner was wrong. I would have felt bad, but rules are rules. I had a girl hit one out of the park with bases loaded and the 4 runs would have won the game. But, unfortunately she stepped on the plate at contact. Dead ball, batter out! The fans almost called the crooked nose guys for a contract on me. I had to get escorts to make it safely to my van. But, looking back, I wouldn't have changed a thing.

"With the helmet removal, I think Fed is a bit different, so the warning or restriction would be warranted there."

In FED, there is NO penalty or warning for removing the helmet when the ball is not live. On a home run hit over the fence, the ball is NOT live.

Bob

Bob,

As usual you are correct. Case Book 1.1.6. Situation E:

I did impose an incorrect penalty on the batter by the rule
stated above. :0

Mike,

You almost got the guys name right. Not Fred and honestly
we have three Roger's in our association, Fred, Dave and
Kevin.

glen

Glen,

Glad to see your post. :D How's the back?

Lady Blue,
You women been hiding these epidural shots from the guys
way too long. That is what I opt for at this point. If
it continues working this good, I will just have <b>another</b>
everytime I am in pain.

Thanks for asking.

glen

If the miss was by a "whisker" and I mean by a "whisker".........I may have seen the touch.........

But in your sitch............gotta call it........

There was a HS girl here a few years ago...........(during the time of the automatic appeal)......glen you probably remember her.........

Dee Williams..........outfielder for a team we communicated about.........

She was slick and could cut the corner on bases without touching to gain an advantage........

She was smart enough to know what umpires she could pull this off on and who she couldn't............

I believe she is playing for LSU now.......

Joel

Silly question (from a non-softball umpire)... Don't you think that maybe the rules regarding a runner touching all the on a homerun should be changed? The ball (like Elvis) has left the building,er park, right? Why do we have this rule to begin with? I know it's in baseball too and has been around since Fred Flintstone was playing. I'll stand back now and listen to the logic and fury.

Art,
Maybe it is picky. But, it's required because the requirement to touch all bases is not excluded. Are you really asking umpires to ignore this rule and every other rule that we might think it too picky? What you think is too picky might be different than what I think is too picky - what do we do with that? And if that's the case, why have a rule book 'cuz we don't have any standards if that's what we do. So, maybe it is best that we umpires do not decide which rules to ignore and enforce them all - regardless of the sport.

The rule exist at most levels because the players still haven't figured out how easy it is to touch all four bases and to eliminate the rule, you are depriving the defense from obtaining an out through the offense's stupidity.

Speaking ASA, touching the bases on a HR or 4 base award is not required for Super, Men's Major, and Men's Class A. (8-3-I EXCEPTION)

When I started doing FED baseball in 1973 (after 17 seasons doing youth ball, semi-pro, rec ball, etc.), I almost had a stroke after going through the Rules Book. At that time, a runner was NOT required to touch any bases after a ground rule hit. In one game, after hitting a home run over the fence, the batter turned to the crowd, took off his helmet and bowed.

Bob

[Edited by bluezebra on Mar 16th, 2002 at 02:48 PM]

Actually, in FED, that's not true. When I started umping FED baseball in 1973, a player did not have to touch the bases on an awarded hit. I forget when they changed the rule.

Bob

Just my two cents but I agree we have to call an out on a obvious appeal play.The girl still got the thrill of a home run she just learned a lesson also.I know how LadyBlue felt to because a few years ago before the appeal rule I called a girl in a H.S. Var. game out in a 0-0 game for clearly missing second on a over the fence homer.Like her I wasn't sure if I would get out alive!I would do it everytime the same though.

This is a year old thread I brought back because the first 10 posts are worth re-reading, IMO.

I just had another thought about this. Who would have ever heard of Fred Merkle (of Merkle's Boner fame) if Glen's partner had been umping that day instead of O'Day and Emslie?!

Scott

A home run includes more than just hitting the ball over the fence. A home run also includes touching all the bases in the proper order and this touching is the easy part.

No pressure. No defense. No worries. No hurry. Stutter step but make sure you touch them all. Jump and stomp on them if you want.

Your partner could easily make it obvious that he is watching this activity by running along-side and even making an under his breath comment "Make sure you touch 2nd!" I personally would never make that comment if I felt the run was important but in this case it was not (I get the feeling from the original post that the Home Team is obviously out-manned - down by 9 runs in the 5th. Home player is ecstatic about her hit.)

Don't scream too loud Mike. I recognize your anal tendencies and know that what I am suggesting is well outside the rules. :) Personnally, I wouldn't find this little bit of coaching to be near the chip in integrity as I would lying about a call that needed to be made (Saying he didn't see her miss the base when he had - I don't want to work with this guy.)

I recommend that during a game, two seconds of quietly playing the part of a coach can avert a career of resentment and prevent permanent loss of integrity. It could possibly anger one coach if you are very obvious (probably not in this situation) but will probably gain you respect with the other. JMHO

OK, I believe in preventive officiating as much as anyone, but direct verbal instructions are a little over the line for me. I try to be conspicuously watching all base runners and especially home run hitters, but say nothing.

As far as "anger one coach ... gain you respect with the other", maybe. But that coach might then suspect you of helping the opponent the next time you see that team. That goes for players, also.

I agree with CecilOne, no need to 'play the coach', you lose integrity as an umpire to anyone that finds out, and believe me, someone will find out eventually.

:eek:

I understand your positions.
 

However, the role of a good umpire is not just robotically enforcing the rules. I feel you need to create a miniature relationship with the players and coaches. You must be personable. You must be understanding. How do you do that? Lie? Intentionally make incorrect calls? I think NOT!

Do any of you talk to the firstbaseman that stands on the inside corner of the base and thereby obstructs the batter-runner from turning towards 2nd?

Do any of you ask the catcher to scoot back from her legal position in her box to ensure she doesn't get hit and that she doesn't interfere with the batter who wants to stand at the very back of the box?

Do any of you ask the coach to take a different postion to ensure he doesn't assist/contact a runner or to stay in the coaching box so you can see your plays better at 1st or down the third base line?

Do any of you talk to the batter to ensure her toes are inside the box before the first pitch comes?

Do any of you talk with the pitcher to promote proper pitch delivery or to prevent the opposing coach from complaining about what he might feel are illegal pitches?

The difference between the above scenarios, which I assume you all do and that you feel are acceptable, is very slight from running the bases with a highly excited batter that has just hit a very surprising homerun and subtly saying "make sure you touch them all."

I don't think any of the above scenarios, including the baserunning, make your integrity questionable. But a partner who lies that he didn't see it when he did... and that intentionally calls something wrong... for the benefit, or to lift the spirits of one team... then brags about his achievement. That person may have a wonderful life but for me he doesn't have any integrity. I would be very nervous working with that person or even being associated with that person. What's true, what's a lie, is this story for real?

Telling a runner to touch a base as she rounds it is a bit of a stretch but I think of the above scenarios as preventive and as a positive impact that an umpire can have on the game. Additionally, I feel they improve that relationship with the teams and establish integrity.

I understand, but I try to differentiate between a player that has already violated an aspect of the rules like being out of the box or off the pitching plate versus instructing them beforehand.

There is a big difference (IMO) between warning a player or a coach about what they have already done to not do that again, especially if it can be a potential safety issue, than coaching a player in the middle of a play.

If you are warning F3 about her position so she will not be charged with obstruction, you have crossed the line. OTOH, if you are warning her to aviod a collision (safety), that is allowed, IMO.

Do you tell the batter she swung early?

Do you remind F3 when stretching for a catch to not pull her foot?

Do you tell a fielder to get her glove down?

Reminding a runner to touch the bases is coaching. She has two base coaches for that. It is crossing the line, IMO, for an umpire to do things like that.

Re: I understand your positions.
 

No, I call the obstruction and then tell the firstbaseman why.

If the catch is that close, his/her feet may be legal, but a good portion of the rest of him/her may cause CO.

Quote:

Do any of you ask the coach to take a different postion to ensure he doesn't assist/contact a runner or to stay in the coaching box so you can see your plays better at 1st or down the third base line?

You should be TELLING them to stay in the box.

Quote:

Do any of you talk to the batter to ensure her toes are inside the box before the first pitch comes?

Speaking ASA, you cannot allow the pitcher to pitch until the batter's entire foot is within the batter's box.

Quote:

Do any of you talk with the pitcher to promote proper pitch delivery or to prevent the opposing coach from complaining about what he might feel are illegal pitches?

Not in a discussion format, but as I'm cleaning the pitcher's plate I will let them know what I need to see for the pitch not to be illegal. (i.e. evidence of a drag)

Quote:

The difference between the above scenarios, which I assume you all do and that you feel are acceptable, is very slight from running the bases with a highly excited batter that has just hit a very surprising homerun and subtly saying "make sure you touch them all."

Agreed. There is no reason to say anything to a runner other than to answer a permissible question. For that matter, there are many coaches who don't want you talking to their player for ANY reason.

That doesn't mean I cannot ask a pertinent question of a player, or find out who is taking the throw at 2B or question a player's physical condition if something seems amiss. I just don't talk to the players about actually making plays.

The answers given by CecilOne, Dakota and Mike are on the money. We are there to officiate a fair, clean game that is both enjoyable and competative for the girls. We are not there to give coaching tips, but tips that were mentioned are part of preventative umpiring which we all should do, but not go overboard.
I'll miss being out there again, as I believe I'll go into full retirement, or I could be like Micheal Jordan and come out next year. I just hope my years of experience can benefit someone on these boards. I love the game and I do not want to see it damaged by any player, coach, parent, fan OR umpire.

:cool: ;)