There's no crying in softball

[DaveASA/FED]

I also have to ask about the different calibration....radar guns send out waves and measure the speed with which those waves are returned to the device, basically a reflection off of the device that is moving toward the gun. So how would that be different between a small ball and a large ball? If this was true, then police better have a semi radar gun and a sub-compact car radar gun, and if they try to give me a ticket on my motorcycle I can really fight it!!!

[Dakota]

Calibration of radar guns is important, and is one of the (few) ways to beat a radar-clocked speeding ticket (police get lazy and skip a calibration deadline).

HOWEVER, the variation is in fairly small percentages, I would expect.

Baseball v softball - I haven't a clue why that would be different unless it is related to the path of the ball relative to the position of the gun - that IS important, since the radar gun basically is measuring the doppler effect of the moving ball on the radar waves. But, again, I would expect the variability to be relatively small so long as the gun operator is REASONABLY behind the catcher (not off to one side or the other much).

Far and away the biggest calibration problem with radar guns measuring the speed of fastpitch pitchers is in the transfer of the data from the gun's readout to Daddy's brain.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

I also have to ask about the different calibration....radar guns send out waves and measure the speed with which those waves are returned to the device, basically a reflection off of the device that is moving toward the gun. So how would that be different between a small ball and a large ball? If this was true, then police better have a semi radar gun and a sub-compact car radar gun, and if they try to give me a ticket on my motorcycle I can really fight it!!!

All radar guns must still be calibrated. For police officers, this is done by placing a tuning fork in front of the gun, supposedly every shift, to simulate a moving car and to give a particular reading.

As for on the field use of radar guns, I am not sure how the calibration is done, but it has always been my understanding that they still need to be. Perhaps my reference to calibrating for the different balls is incorrect. I remember one time being at a minor league game and the calibration of the gun was so messed up, that the readings on the pitchers were all in the 40's or so. During the bottom half of the first inning, two guys came down and worked with it, and by the second inning they had it calibrated to give the correct readings.

[DaveASA/FED]

Ya I am aware of the tuning fork precedure have even done it, back in my reserve officier days (just volunteer for Fire and EMS now) and that was where the size don't matter position was coming from. I also agree that several of those "cheap" guns that people have aren't worth the money they paid for them, they are questionable at best when they were first shipped and I bet they have been dropped beaten around and never calibrated since they were new!

So to those of you who said you have seen pitchers throwing 60+ you probably saw a gun that said she was....but it would be interesting to see what a high quality recently calibrated device would have registered that pitch at!

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

So to those of you who said you have seen pitchers throwing 60+ you probably saw a gun that said she was....but it would be interesting to see what a high quality recently calibrated device would have registered that pitch at!

Maybe that's what I should have said!

[FullCount]

There was a study done, I believe by some orthopedic group, during the 1996 Olympics if I'm remembering correctly. I think it's purpose was to study the stress effects of fastpitch pitchers on the shoulder complex as related to pitching style and some other factors. Links to a report of the results of the study was floating around on the various forums for a good while but I can't find it quickly. But as I recall, they captured data on 24 pitchers from the various countries competing in softball and the report had a chart tabulating data, including speed, on all of the pitches thrown to batters for at least 22 of the 24 pitchers listed. They used 3 radar guns and cameras to capture the data for analysis.

Again, this is from memory, but I think the chart showing pitch speed for all the pitches was quite interesting because it only had something like 2 or 3 pitches over 70 mph.

Contrast this to the number of coaches, parents, and players that claim they regularly pitch in excess of 70 mph, from 10U up. This was best summed up by a friend who said that the pitcher had one pitch, one time, over 70 mph that was thrown from the back of pickup while on an interstate highway. That established her speed for evermore.

[jmaellis]

Okay, not that it has much to do with the original topic of this thread, but I can shed some light on this radar issue (if you really want to know). I'm a 15+ year LEO, radar certified, moving & stationary.

radar guns send out waves and measure the speed with which those waves are returned to the device

The radar unit measures the change in frequency of the radio wave, not it's speed.

Baseball v softball - I haven't a clue why that would be different unless it is related to the path of the ball relative to the position of the gun - that IS important, since the radar gun basically is measuring the doppler effect of the moving ball on the radar waves. But, again, I would expect the variability to be relatively small so long as the gun operator is REASONABLY behind the catcher (not off to one side or the other much).

I also don't see why a different gun or calibration would be needed for a baseball vs. softball. The angle could make a difference .. the greater the angle of offset to the target the less accurate the radar (always a reduction from actual speed). Size of the target, length of track and speed of the target all factor into how far from true speed the radar might register. There is an equation to figure this all out if you have all the relevant data. Regardless, the poster is correct, as long as the radar unit is not offset by much, it's not likely to make much (if any) difference.

All radar guns must still be calibrated. For police officers, this is done by placing a tuning fork in front of the gun, supposedly every shift, to simulate a moving car and to give a particular reading.

Radar units are "calibrated" by the factory in accordance with a recommended schedule, department policy and any relevant law. Tuning forks (usually frequencies for 35 MPH and 50 MPH) are used to check the accuracy of the radar, usually at he beginning and end of each shift (that was my practice anyway) Tuning forks don't calibrate anything, they're used to check/verify the accuracy of the factory calibrated unit.

This is how things were for the radar units that I used. Any tinkering with the insides of the units was strictly done by the manufacture. I suppose there could be units out there that are not used for law enforcement purposes that might allow tinkering or self calibration .. dunno.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by jmaellis

...The radar unit measures the change in frequency of the radio wave, not it's speed....

i.e. the Doppler effect.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by jmaellis

...Radar units are "calibrated" by the factory in accordance with a recommended schedule, department policy and any relevant law. Tuning forks (usually frequencies for 35 MPH and 50 MPH) are used to check the accuracy of the radar, usually at he beginning and end of each shift (that was my practice anyway) Tuning forks don't calibrate anything, they're used to check/verify the accuracy of the factory calibrated unit.

This is how things were for the radar units that I used. Any tinkering with the insides of the units was strictly done by the manufacture. I suppose there could be units out there that are not used for law enforcement purposes that might allow tinkering or self calibration .. dunno.

I'm surprised by this. As an engineer who uses calibrated test equipment every day in my job, I can't imagine using a piece of test equipment that remained uncalibrated for an arbitrary length of time. Perhaps where you worked, they had a set schedule for sending the units back to the factory for calibration, but an informal checking of accuracy with a tuning fork before / after each shift is NOT sufficient metrology to pass any kind of rigorous lab procedure, nor should it be sufficient for law enforcement purposes.

But, we are digressing here. No amount of calibration can overcome the proud papa phactor.

[jmaellis]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I'm surprised by this. As an engineer who uses calibrated test equipment every day in my job, I can't imagine using a piece of test equipment that remained uncalibrated for an arbitrary length of time. Perhaps where you worked, they had a set schedule for sending the units back to the factory for calibration, but an informal checking of accuracy with a tuning fork before / after each shift is NOT sufficient metrology to pass any kind of rigorous lab procedure, nor should it be sufficient for law enforcement purposes.

But, we are digressing here. No amount of calibration can overcome the proud papa phactor.

Originally Posted by JMAELLIS

Radar units are "calibrated" by the factory in accordance with a recommended schedule, department policy and any relevant law.

Not arbitrary. The units are sent in for calibration according the manufacturer's recommended schedule, department policy (which may be more frequent) and the law. Tuning forks are used to check the accuracy of the radar between calibrations (the forks also go in with the unit to verify their accuracy .. at least thats what we did .. can't speak for others.)

[JefferMC]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

So to those of you who said you have seen pitchers throwing 60+ you probably saw a gun that said she was....but it would be interesting to see what a high quality recently calibrated device would have registered that pitch at!

For my DD and the 60 MPH 11 year old, I know that the pitching coach callibrates his radar gun with a tuning fork daily. The gun is also mounted (inside a building) on a tripod next to a 10" high display for all the proud papas to see. The only sticking point I have is that he records the fastest pitch thrown in a liberal strike zone on a walk-up delivery (it's good for business). But over the past few years I've seen 6 HS age girls get to or above 60, with one as fast as 67. She was playing 14U at the time that went on the wall.

For the others, I don't have radar on them, but I do have timing. I time at least 5 pitches from the time it leaves their hand until it hits the catchers mitt (making sure I have a good angle on both :-). Factoring in the plate distance and subtracting the leap distance I get a speed accurate within an MPH or three. This is not a perfect science (due to human reaction times, etc), but I've compared with radar and been pretty dang close.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by JefferMC

... the pitching coach callibrates his radar gun with a tuning fork daily...(it's good for business)...

Sure it is...

[argodad]

Originally Posted by JefferMC

For my DD and the 60 MPH 11 year old, I know that the pitching coach callibrates his radar gun with a tuning fork daily. The gun is also mounted (inside a building) on a tripod next to a 10" high display for all the proud papas to see. The only sticking point I have is that he records the fastest pitch thrown in a liberal strike zone on a walk-up delivery (it's good for business). But over the past few years I've seen 6 HS age girls get to or above 60, with one as fast as 67. She was playing 14U at the time that went on the wall.

I can't tell you how many 11 or 12 year-old 60MPH phenoms I've heard about in the 15 years I've been doing this. They must all move away by the time they reach high school, because I never see them ... and I guess I never get assigned to their games in summer tournaments, either.

[DaveASA/FED]

Dakota,
what the heck this has already strayed WAY off course so I will keep going . Also as an Engineer, if the device is calibrated at the required interval, determined by manufacturer and department (usually less time then previous, but if justified why longer it can be approved) and the device is still within its calibaration period then this practice should pass an audit. The tuning fork verification is just that a feel good, unofficial comparitive reference method to enable the departement to know if there is a reason to decrease the calibration interval on a certain device. Some could even use this as a "verify before use" type of calibration if the tuning fork was calibrated and tracable to NIST. not a recommended practice but could be done.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

Dakota,
what the heck this has already strayed WAY off course so I will keep going . Also as an Engineer, if the device is calibrated at the required interval, determined by manufacturer and department (usually less time then previous, but if justified why longer it can be approved) and the device is still within its calibaration period then this practice should pass an audit. The tuning fork verification is just that a feel good, unofficial comparitive reference method to enable the departement to know if there is a reason to decrease the calibration interval on a certain device. Some could even use this as a "verify before use" type of calibration if the tuning fork was calibrated and tracable to NIST. not a recommended practice but could be done.

I have no problem with the informal accuracy checks. His original post read like this was the only procedure they used unless the unit had to be sent back to the factory for repair or something. He clarified that this was not correct - they send them back for calibration on a set schedule. That is proper procedure if they do not have the capability in house to calibrate the gun (along with the personnel trained to do the calibration). I really have no idea how many (if any) police forces have their own metrology lab. We have a metrology lab here where I work where our test equipment is calibrated by trained technicians.