Catcher Standing on Plate.
 

ASA 14U Rec Ball.

R1 on 1st, Batter lays down a bunt.

F5 fields and badly over throws F4 in an attempt to force R1 at 2nd, ball gets past F8 and rolls a very long way, R1 scores. As BR rounds 3rd, F2 move to and stands on plate waiting for throw from F6 who is behind 2nd and has taken a cut off throw from F8. BR has to move around F2(who does not have the ball) to attempt to touch the plate. After passing the plate, BR trots into the Dugout(DBT) and is called out by PU for not touching the plate. When asked if not touching a base is an appeal play, PU stated that F2(who never received the ball, ball was thrown by F6 to F1) stated that the runner did not touched the plate.

Question 1, is not touching touching a base an appeal play?
Question 2, if so, can a fielder without the ball appeal a missed base?
Question 3, if no appeal was made, is the runner out if he/she does not touch the plate and enter DBT?
Question 4, Could obstruction be considered, as F2 did not have the ball and run had to move around F2
to attempt to touch the plate?

Thanks
GaryB

I'll give it a try.

Q1. Yes. ASA 8.7.1
Q2. Yes. During a dead ball appeal.
Q3. No. Assuming, of couse, that the runner physically passed home plate and didn't just go to DBT while being between 3rd and home. Unless, of course, your umpire is making up rules, then almost anything goes.

You overlooked one, Mark.

The answer is, yes, you did describe obstruction. However, even with obstruction, the runner must touch the plate. IOW, obstruction would not negate the appeal. The runner would still be out on appeal.

So in addition to the questions, from the OP it looks like we should have seen an obstruction call here. But I'm not sure I'm comfortable with how this one works. An obstructed runner still needs to touch the base and has no protection for a missed base? So supposing the runner doesn't get the base because of obstruction and leaves the field thinking they did get it, they enjoy no protection from being appealed out in this situation?
Even though the runner may have thought they got the very small piece of home that the catcher wasn't obstructing?
--Ben.
________
Live Sex Webshows

4 wasn't there when I replied. Look at the time stamps. :D

At 14U, this would be a great learning opportunity. Always touch the bases.

Correct. It is no different from an unobstructed runner thinking they got the edge of the plate, but missed it. ASA 8-5-B says, in part,

Yes, obstructed runners have to touch the bases. But I thought that if the OBS caused the runner to miss the base, it was a different story. The OP seems to describe such a case.

Was obstruction called? by that, I mean did you have a delayed dead ball followed by a dead ball, to give the obstructed runner the opportunity to touch the base she missed due to the obstruction. Failing that, you have now given full and unfair advantage to the defense -- in my opinion.

John - mechanically, are you going to do that any different than you would at first, second, or third? Meaning, when I have obstruction, I give the DDB, wait for the play to end, kill it, announce obstruction and announce that the runner is awarded a base (if it applies). At the plate, if I do that, I can honestly see the runner getting excited and being congratulated by her team mates. So, do we leave it up to the coach to inform his runner to touch the awarded plate? Or, do we say/do something different?

ASA 14U Rec Ball.

Question 1: Yes.
Question 2: If the ball is dead, yes, an INfielder can make the appeal. Outfielders may not do so. If you hear an outfielder calling out an appeal, pretend you don't hear him/her, but keep your ears peeled for an infielder repeating the "appeal."
Question 3: No.
Question 4: Only in the sense that you give the runner enough time to allow her to complete their baserunning responsibilities. Once she goes into the dugout, or if a runner behind her scores (if we're in a situation where there's another runner), she can't return to touch HP. At that point, she may be properly appealed by the defense.

Take the OP situation. When would you call the ball dead?

The defense could make a live ball appeal at any time. In the OP, the BR entered the dugout. There were no more runners on base, and the BR could no longer return to touch. The dead ball verbal appeal could then be honored.

I think gm is saying the runner would have reached home (ITUJ) if not obstructed.
Isn't this the same as a runner tagged between the point of OBS and the next base or returning to the previous base because of being OBS and then being awarded the attempted base?

Even if the OBS caused the runner to miss the base, you're still going to award the runner the base they would have gotten had there been no OBS. That being said, runners should still complete their baserunning responsibilities. If this means she has to go back 30 feet, touch the missed base, and then continue on, then so be it.

Yes, but they still have to touch the base. If it was any base other than the plate, it is obvious, since they are going to go stand on the next base. This makes the plate a little unique.

Why do all the good arguments on here occur either when I am at lunch, asleep, or working? (I can hear the cracks about sleep and working already.)

A little unique but not much in so that the next stop is the dugout. They had all the time from the point of obstruction till they touch the DBT in the dugout to finish their baserunning duties.

I understand that completely. But, if you weren't an umpire, would you be aware of your baserunning duties at age 14?

Maybe not but the coach should have been and should have been yelling at her to go back and touch the plate before she got in the dugout.

Thanks for the laugh. But you should put a smiley in your post when you are making fun of coaches. :D

Yes, I should have :)

Coaches are dumb :D

Sorry, I'm in a slap-happy mood today. My games weren't cancelled due to wet conditions, so back behind the plate, I go. :cool:

Which is why I posed the question...

This issue intrigues me as it raises the question: "Are you going to call the book literally? Or by the spirit of the law?"

R1 coming home, F2 blocks the plate, R1 slides wide, PU's arm out and says "obstruction," R1 misses plate, F2 receives ball.

Sit 1: F2 dives and tags R1; PU calls dead ball, awards R1 home on obstruction.

Sit 2: F2 looks at PU and says, "she missed the plate," then tags R1. PU honors the appeal (which is an exception to the obstruction rules), and calls R1 out.

Can anyone find a rule that supports allowing a runner free access to return to touch a base missed due to obstruction, before honoring a missed base appeal?


WMB

What if the PU calls OBS after the play is dead (either on his own, or after conferring with FU, for example) and after the BR entered team area? Do you then let the BR come out and complete her awarded baserunning, since it was the PU's failure to call OBS during live ball play that put the BR in jeopardy from completing her baserunning?

No, actually, it didn't. What prevented the BR from returning to retouch was her entering the dugout. Whether or not OBS was called, she is still obligated to touch home plate, and is in jeopardy of being out on appeal if she does not.

In situation 2, if she missed the plate due to the obstruction, I would award home. Situation 1 is easy.

In the situation in the OP I would keep the obstruction/DDB signal on until she stopped trying to touch home. Then I would have a missed base and possible appeal. I think that this goes with the intent of the rules.

If the runner was tagged before touching the plate, while still attempting to touch the plate, after the the DDB sigal, then I kill the play and award bases.

Comments?

Okay, I'm not 100% certain of the mechanic here, so someone correct me if I'm wrong. In this case, I would expect the BU to call for a dead ball. At that point, the mess should be easily cleared up. The key word being: should.

ASA

RS #1,C,1

That is talking about a dead ball appeal. WMB's example was a live ball appeal.

In sit 2, if R1 is heading toward the dugout, I'd honor the appeal. If R1 is attempting to get back to the plate, this is still part of the effect of the obstruction, and I would not honor the live ball appeal. I don't have sound rules basis for that last one, but it seems right.

And your answer is "spirit of the law." That is where I was leaning, but I was looking for someone to support a literal interpretation.

WMB

If DDB obstruction was called and the runner missed the plate, i would only call her out on appeal if (in my judgement) she had been given an opportunity to complete her base running responsibilities. Am i missing something here?

It is not a live ball appeal if it is on an obstructed runner which has been tagged out.

If the missed base is a direct result of the OBS (which it is in the scenario), I'm not going to reward the defense.

I got an out on this one as described.

I might have OBS, in which case I would have signaled OBS.

In either case, if that runner trots off to the dugout, she is out.

I almost cant imagine a scenario where an appeal for missing a base would not be honored no matter the level of OBS.

Why?

Once the the play is over and the runner is awarded home, that is what she must do. That is her whole purpose of existence. If she trots off to the dugout.. phew! I got an out!

What could possibly preclude that?

Even if that catcher tackled her and held her down until the right fielder with the ball ran up and tagged her, I'm going to call dead ball and award her home.

If she cant touch home.. thats not my problem.

So a few disjoint thoughts here.

1. Not that I'd ever want to insist on this, but if you're arguing that you have to call this a particular way because of the book. Per the poorly edited book, you cannot call a runner out for entering deadball territory between obstructed bases. There are only a small number of exceptions and they are all listed out. :p

2. We seem to have two sitch'es here. There seems to be pretty good agreement that in some form if a runner is obstructed 3 feet from home and doesn't go back to get the bag she's out, but not much agreement as to form on how to call that.
So where in the rulebook does it say not to do it this way:
1. Signal obstruction.
2. When the runner gives up and enters deadball territory, call her out. She's now an obstructed runner put out. So under 8-5-b-2, we call time, award runners bases, in her case that's home.
3. Give her "ample time" to her to go out and touch it.
4. Then honor the appeal.


3. Now, where there seems to be strong disagreement is this situation. (I'm making it as borderline as I can, if you think this is okay where would you draw the line.) So here's my dreamland sitch:
Tie game with runner on third in bottom of 7th inning.
Sharply hit ball to the right fielder playing in and slow runner.
F2 sets up near the plate about a step up the third base line.
As the runner runs over the plate the catcher bumps her causing her foot to miss the base hitting the black that is not actually part of the plate.
F2 then catches the ball and swipes back toward the runner who has just passed the plate.
PU then signals safe while runner stops at first.
Home team swarms the field and surrounds the safe runner at home plate.

[At this point, prior to this thread if I'm PU the game is over because I don't want trouble where none is needed. But it seems some of you think this should end like this:]
PU calls dead ball. Announces obstruction and awards home.
PU waits around for ample time trying to watch the swarm the whole time to see if the awarded runner ever gets home.
F2 then says blue she missed the plate.
PU gives his best sell out and prepares to eject at least the head coach from the home team plus maybe a few others.

Thoughts?

--Ben
________
MEDICAL CANNABIS SEEDS

This would be one of them there listed out situations...

I dont understand why an obstructed runner is giving up on her responsibilities in these cases?

She is out now if properly appealed.

OBS no longer applies.


If I award a runner a base and they dont touch the awarded base, and they enter dead ball territory

They are out.

There is no gray area here...

This one is on the coach.

Wade, in the situation in two I'm asking about mechanics. In the situation in three she never even leaves the field. She's standing next to the plate and the coach is not responsible for not knowing that his runner missed the plate by a half inch.
Oh and in one, no it's not. I double checked before making the post.
________
MatureBliss4U