I had this question asked to me by a coach concerning the new FED lookback rule and wanted to get some feedback from the distinguished brethern. Here's the play;

No outs. R1 is on 2nd base. B2 is at the plate with a 3-2 count. As the pitch is released R1 takes a strong secondary lead from 2nd, but the pitch is a ball. B2 heads down to 1st, takes an aggressive turn at the bag, comes off the bag about 10 feet, comes to a stop, and then heads back to 1st. R1 is still off 2nd watching the action. When does she have to get back to 2nd?

Here is the answer that I want to give to the coach. R1 is not influenced by the lookback rule - only B2 going to 1st base on the walk. R1 needs to return to 2nd once the pitcher has the ball in the 16 ft circle. Of course if the pitcher makes a play on B2 then all bets are off.

Do i have a clue? Let me know.

Dan,
It sounds like your application of look-back is correct. R1 is not subject to the look-back rule until B2 reaches 1B. At that point in time - provided no "play" by F1 who does have the ball and is in the circle - R1 is subject to look-back and must immediately go to 3B or return to 2B with no further stop/feint/...

Steve,

You are correct in your rule explanation, but I'm not sure that is what Dan was saying.

He said,
This sounds like he is saying R1 can be rung up as soon as the pitcher has the ball in the circle, regardless of where the BR is.

He needs to add "... and the BR has reached 1B." to his sentence above.

If I've misread your post, Dan, please correct me.

Dakota,

If I was unclear I appologize - I did not intend to ring up R1 in this situation. I wa probably unclear, or something was lost in the translation from my keyboard to the computer. ;>)

On a walk, the lookback rule is "off" for all runners on base until the BR reaches first base. Once the BR has touched or passed first and the pitcher has the ball in the circle, the lookback rule is "on" for all runners on base.

In your situation, once the BR reaches first, B1 needs to commit one way or another. If she just stands there and the pitcher is not making a play on either her or the BR - she is out!

Last year, I had the following situation: R1 on first, B2 got a walk. F2 returned the ball to F1. R1, advancing to 2B, decided for some reason to pause and start deking to draw a throw. In normal circumstances, it would have been a look-back violation. F1 eventually started chasing R1, but she made it to 2B. Then the defensive coach wanted R1 out for the look-back rule.

I said R1 was entitled to 2B without liability to be put out. Was I right?

Greymule,

I'm going with the POE (#28 I think) on the Look-back Rule that states:<ul><i>If a runner is moving toward a base, <b>other than first base</b>, when the pitcher receives the ball in the circle, <b>that runner must continue toward that base or be called out.</b> </i> (original emphasis)</ul>So in your case, I would have called the runner out when she started dekking around.

SamC

In the situation described,R1 would be out as soon as batter-runner reaches first.This is assuming the pitcher has the ball in the circle,and does not make a play or feint a play on either runner.
Jeff

Guess I should have called her out. Last year they didn't have the rule about the batter having to reach 1B. And I can't find any exceptions for walks.

I guess if you're wacky enough to try to bait the pitcher in a situation like that, you should be called out.

I gotta go with your first gut feeling greymule.......

8-6-A says they are entitled to advance without liability to be put out........

I know that they are not exactly <i>put out</i> on a lookback rule violation........but I would not call them out........

Joel

Sam, gotta disagree here. I don't think R1 could be called
out under the <b>look-back</b> rule since she is entitled
to advance due to batter receiving walk. She, R1 has not
yet reached 2B she is protected and entitled to advance
without liability to be put out...We might impose a delay
of game on her though. {:D} or could impose 10-9A.

glen

<b>OOOOOPS</B>

Sorry, did not read Joels post and he's saying something
similar.

Verrrry..Verrrry sorry. :rolleyes:,

:o glen

We covered this scenerio at our FED mandatory rules meeting with our interpreter.R1 may come off second base until the batter runner reaches first base.At that point she must make up her mind and either return to second or advance to third.This is of course taking into account the pitcher has the ball in the circle and is not making or feinting a play.We were told to pump her out if she doesnt immediately decide which way to go.
Jeff

Jeff

This is different. R1 was on first, never reached 2B. She
is entitled to advance without liability to be put out. She
was forced to vacate because the batter was awarded a BB.
Agree with your scenerio completely. [see greymule secenrio]

glen

Glen, In Dan's original post,he has that runner(R1)at second base prior to the walk.I agree with your scenerio,but if the runner begins the play at second and dances around the bag after the B/R reaches first,we have an out.
Jeff

Jeff
I apologize, I was assuming and I know what to assume
does. Makes an a** out of u and me, although not in
your case, but certainly in mine.

Sorry :o

glen

No problem at all Glen.I just wanted to make sure we were dicussing the play described.I do enjoy reading your insightful posts on this board.
Jeff

look back rule
 

It has been mentioned that once a pitcher has the ball in the circle, during a walk the batter/runner while attempting to go to second MAY reverse her direction if a play is made on her. Is this true ?, and what constitutes making a play. Does it require a throw by the pitcher, and if the ball is not in flight yet when the direction change is made THEN WHAT ? I was under the impression that a change in direction wasn't allowed PERIOD !, once the pitcher had the ball in the circle.

Re: look back rule
 

Runner may stop and then must immediately choose a direction and go. This may mean a change in direction if the runner goes past their base, stops, and then returns to their base. They have changed directions - for example they were advancing to 2nd, they stopped, now they are returning to 1st. This is legal.

Changing directions more than this (in an attempt to attract a defensive play) is illegal. Stopping, feinting to 1st, and then running for 2nd is illegal - as long as the pitcher has not made a play.

A play by the defense can be the pitcher raising her hand with the ball in it (a feint). And now the runner can do whatever she wants.

The look-back rule is applicable to any runner off any base because they must be on the base at the time of the pitch. It is not just applicable to runners between 1st and 2nd.

The situation of greymule with a runner forced to advance due to the batter being walked and the pitcher being sucked-in to making a play on a runner with no liability to be put-out is just stupid defense. Delay of game? Possibly; but I can't imagine that much dancing that the game could appreciably be delayed.

Hope this helps!:)

Once the pitcher makes a play on the runner, the look-back rule is off for all runners. It's like time out in that it is universal and does not apply in one place and not another.

I believe that ASA and Fed do differ in what they consider to be a play. In ASA, a play is just about anything the pitcher does that the runner might interpret as being a play (such as simply holding the ball up or turning quickly toward the runner). I no longer do Fed, but I think they want to see more of a definite "play."

Incidentally, ASA POE #33, which covers the look-back rule, contains a very misleading sentence:

"If a runner is moving toward a base, other than first base, when the pitcher receives that ball in the circle, that runner must continue toward the base or be called out."

This is obviously untrue. A runner could have rounded 2B and be two steps toward 2B and still moving when the pitcher gets the ball in the circle. The runner is still entitled to a stop, after which she could either proceed toward 3B or return to 2B.

Re: look back rule
 

No. The runner may stop once and either continue or reverse without the pitcher doing anything at all. IOW, no play is necessary for the runner to stop once & reverse direction. Second, if a play is made the runner (and all other runners) is released altogether from the lookback rule. ASA POE 33 defines making a play as <u>any action</u> by the pitcher that, in the umpire's judgment, causes the runner to react. The ball in flight is obviously a "play", but so is a fake throw.Not true. As I said above, the runner may stop once and then must immediately move in one direction or the other (assuming no play is made).

NFHS uses very similar wording in the rule, and the NFHS case book includes several examples of pitchers raising arms, stepping toward bases, etc., wherein the case book explains again that it is umpire judgment, so such actions <u>could</u> constitute making a play. They give a couple of examples where it would not be a play (i.e. BR rounds 1st, no other runners on, F1 takes a step toward 3rd), and others where they say it would <u>probably</u> not be a play (F1 raises her arm, apparently to adjust her jersey, etc.), but leave open the <u>possibility</u> that the umpire could judge these as making a play.

look back, batter/runner rounds 1st & goes toward 2nd
 

With NO PLAY BEING MADE ON BATTER RUNNER !. ASA 8-7-T-3-B Page 116 of "03" rule book states that if you "ROUND" 1st and move toward 2nd, you CAN STOP, but can't go back to first..you are committed to 2nd. This was where yesterday I was unsure. If you simply over run first and dont "round" towards 2nd then you can stop and return to 1st. I did not know the difference until just this morning.
In local league play we get walkers & 3rd stikers constantly "rounding" 1st, stop, and go back. They are OUT.

Re: look back, batter/runner rounds 1st & goes toward 2nd
 

No, it doesn't. No, they aren't.

8-7T-3b, c, d, and e concern overrunning.

Here is the rule concerning rounding:

With a runner on second, and a walk to the batter, the lookback rule is NOT in effect until the BR reaches first. She is entitled to make a turn, stop, and then go either way without any further stops. If during this time, the runner off second is just standing there when the BR reaches first, at which time the lookback rule is in effect, watching what is going on at first, and the pitcher makes NO play, The runner at second is OUT. In greymule's play, which sorta got off the subject, and now we have two different plays, the runner on first when a walk is issued, goes to second without liability to be put out. Not sure why she is playing around before she gets to second, or why the pitcher thinks she can make a play on her, but she is protected to second.

Re: look back, batter/runner rounds 1st & goes toward 2nd
 

Doesn't NFHS have such a restriction on an overrun of 1st followed by a move toward 2nd?

Presumably because drawing a play from a pitcher who is reacting instead of thinking could lead to an error and further advancement.

Re: Re: look back, batter/runner rounds 1st & goes toward 2nd
 

Yes - for <u>overrunning</u> 1st, rather than <u>rounding</u> first - NFHS 8-7-3c. So does ASA. ASA 8-7T-3c.

Re: Re: Re: look back, batter/runner rounds 1st & goes toward 2nd
 

Right, I said overrunning, probably where the confusion above comes from. And, oh yes, the earlier comment did say ASA.

All this talk about ASA vs NFHS. Any of you umpires that do both should know by now that the LB rule is both books is 99.999% identical. The only difference I see is that ASA uses 8' radius and NFHS uses 16' dia to describe the circle; and ASA uses the pronoun HE and NFHS uses SHE. Oh, and ASA uses EFFECT and NFHS uses PENALTY, but the verbage within is identical.

Despite all the words, there is no difference between "Rounding" 1B and "Over-running" 1B. In both cases you have your basic "3 step rule" - Stop, Decide, and Proceed Non-Stop.

The runner gets to stop once, then must decide whether to go to the next base or back to the last base. After the decision, the runner must proceed non-stop to the base of choice.

If the runner "rounds" 1B, her movement is towards 2B and she get to stop once. (And we are not going to argue about how far she can go before the STOP.) Then decide, and either go to 2B or back to 1B.

If the runner "over-runs" 1B, her movement is towards RF. When she pulls up to return to the infield she has committed a stop.

A) If she turns Left then she must decide - go to 2B or return to 1B. Any movement towards either base commits her to proceed non-stop to that base.

B) If she turns Right she is assumed to have decided to return to 1B, and any other action would be illegal.

If you will just remember this "3-Step Rule", understand, and officiating the Look-Back Rule is simple.

Oh BTW, there is one other difference between ASA and NFHS. For the LB to be in effect in ASA the pitcher must have control of the ball (in hand or glove); in NFHS the pitcher only has to have possession. Tucked under the chin while she adjusts her pony tail is possession in NFHS.

WMB

WMB, you are incomplete in your description of the LBR as it applies to overrunning first base. If she turns left, the ONLY way she will have a choice of base is if she stops IMMEDIATELY upon turning left. If she turns and moves toward 2nd base, she may still stop, but she can only continue to 2nd base. If she turns and moves toward anywhere except 2nd base (back toward the infield or toward 1st base), she may still stop, but she can only continue to 1st base. In this latter case, while she is required to return to 1st by the LBR, she is still protected from being put out before she returns to 1st, since she has made no attempt to 2nd.

IOW, if the overrunning runner does anything except turn left and stop immediately, she is committed to a specific base if the pitcher has the ball in the circle and is not making a play.

The rounding runner, OTOH, is not committed until she moves again after her stop.

I think I already said they were very similar.

"All this talk" was really only about two points: do the two books differ in the definition of what consitutes a pitcher making a play, and do the two books differ in the rule WRT overrunning first.

On the first question, I pointed out that, while the NFHS book is not as explicit in the definition of "making a play" as the ASA POE is, the NFHS case book certainly implies there is very little (if any) difference in interpretation between the two.

On the second question, I pointed out that the two books were the same.