Inning ending mistake
 

One of my umpires described this situation that happened to him today. He wanted my opinion and thought I'd throw it out to you all. R1 on second. As the B2 steps up to plate my collegue checks his indicater and can't recall if there is one or two outs. Before he can signal to ask his partner the B2 hits a fly ball to center. F8 catches the ball and runs in as defense and offense start to change sides. He says to himself that must now be three outs, goes in, sweeps off the pitchers plate and goes out past 1st to await the new inning.

Defensive coach from a few moments ago now says, wait a minute, that last catch was only the 2nd out. He wants to appeal the runner at second for not tagging up. Umpire confirms with both books that there really was only 2 outs, and decides to put everyone back on the field and keep R1 at second base for no specific reason other than it seemed like the right thing to do.

I'm not sure what the right call is. The inning had not officially ended so I think the appeal would be good. Maybe an out for abandoning a base could be in order. Putting everyone back doesn't seem right but I don't know a rule that covers this. What do you think?

If this is ASA I think you gotta fall back on ole Rule Number Ten..

and making it right is good enough since both the offense and defense left the field.

Agree with Wade. Can't put a runner in jeopardy based on an umpire mistake.

Both teams left the field - changed - voluntarily AND the coach waited "moments". No check of the books, 3 outs.

DH - that's not an umpire mistake - that's a mistake by the defense that the offense chose not to take advantage of. Bad mistake by 3B & 1B coaches!

Did forget to mention Fed rules. And doesn't the offense bear some responsibility for not knowing the out count and simply walking off the field?

I got a third out. 8-7-u in ASA.

EDIT: 8-6-22 in FED

Nobody said the runner entered the dugout. Every team I played with would always bring out a runner's glove at the change of the inning.

Long ago, when I started umpiring, there was a coach who used this as a ploy to catch the offense of guard.

If an inning was going a bit long, he would signal his team to hustle off the field on out #2. Half the time, the defender with the ball would just run toward the mound and tag an unsuspecting runner who has walked off the base.

Having played for that coach, I was aware of the play and would always be alert. Never had a problem calling that 3rd out, nor did I have a problem resetting the field if the offense caught on or allowing the additional bases if they were smart enough to safely advance during the charade.

Had this one last year, in a competetive high school summer league...(ie: they should have known better).

Runner on third. I have one out (which was correct). Batter grounds out, 6-3. F3 rolls ball to the circle and the defense hustles off the field.

Runner at third begins to wander toward her dugout. Third base coach, maybe after noticing that I'm still watching the field, alertly tells runner to "run home!". She does and scores without a play.

Defensive coach gets bent out of shape. Seems to think the whole thing was my fault. Guess he thinks I should have killed the play and protected his team from their own blunder.

Just to be 100% sure, I check both books and both had only two outs (hey, it's not like I've ever missed one before, but had this one right).

Coach is still fuming. My response: "Coach, I didn't say there were three outs and I didn't tell your team to leave the field! They did that all on their own. Get back out there- we have another batter!".

Bret,
I had a similar happening in a high school game a couple of years ago. What turned out to be the winning run scored when the defense dropped the ball in the circle and left the field. A very funny prelude was that the defense's pitching coach had just yelled to the team that there were 2 outs (I only showed 1 and so did my partner). So nobody was nuts enough to say their mistake was our fault - but they did kinda lay into the assistant coach.:D

Would you ever consider correcting the coach who yells this to his team?

That's coaching, not umpiring. I would only correct the number of outs if I were asked by a coach or a player.

I would absolutely do this. It's not coaching, it's preventative umpiring. The defense aren't the only ones who can hear this. The runners can hear it, too.

Tom,
No - far be it from me to correct what a coach sez to his team - I'm not a coach.

And THEY have their own coaches who just might be aware of how many outs there really are - it is their job. By your coaching, you have prevented the offense from possibly taking advantage of the defnse's mistake. Call this a mental error by the defense - you have zero business correcting the defense.

Nobody said the player didn't enter the dugout either.
Every? Always?

I'm very leerly of words like that, especially when taking an umpire test.

Yet that fact makes a difference as the runner could not be declared out unless they did so according to your rule citation of 8.7.U.

You can be as "leerly" as you want, I don't care. I think I am a bit more qualified to state what has happened in my life than your are.

I dont correct the coach, but when I hear that, I say and signal the correct number of outs.

ie

Coach "OK girls 2 outs".

Me getting set "Here we go 1 down".

if coach batter & catcher dont catch on, thats their problem.

My umpire didn't indicate whether R1 entered the dugout area. Probably wasn't looking. Let's say she didn't. Let's say she did go close to the dugout, have someone toss her glove to her and then go to her spot on the field. Couldn't base abandonment ( Fed 8-6-22) come in to play in this situation?

It definitely applies if that was ruled by the umpire. I think the key here is the umpire mistake. If every one is switching and the umpire is happily cleaning the plate, and giving the impression (and believes) the inning is over, this is an umpire error and can be fixed. Had the umpire determined that the runner had abandoned her base and called her out, that would have been different. Even better would have been some preventative umpiring (but the umpire did not know how many outs).

Note that ASA is different on this rule and requires the runner to enter deadball/dugout territory for the out. NFHS does not.

What I cannot understand for the life of me is how a pitcher could pitch not giving him the chance to ascertain the number of outs.

The pitcher aint in charge of anything.

This was a failure on the part of the umpire, not a trick play.. not an abandonment (that must be declared by the umpire).. so best thing is to fix it IMO.

Yes. It is coaching.

This is a new one for me..

I gotta admit, I've never heard umpires claim giving the count or outs is coaching.

Now today, with 2 outs, I heard a coach say "get the lead runner". I didnt say anything, give the outs, or do anything outside my routine.

Now if I had said "look moron, there are 2 outs", that would have been coaching.

Simply giving outs or count is not coaching.

But, if you correct a coach who has made an announcement to his that is incorrect, as was being discussed, that is what you are saying in some form or fashion, and subsequently it is coaching.

I'd kind of agree with you as to how it is done. If you overtly correct a coach, it could be coaching. If you independently announce it, then that is what it is.

What you dont want to happen is partners to click an out thinking the coach is right, score keepers get confused and everything else. You are not the holder of the big secret as to how many outs there are. It is not soccer where only you know the time. If there was a score board, that would be one thing.. if you are holding out on information for fear its coaching.. its not. You are preventing an issue and making sure everyone is on the same page.

You dont need to address the coach, make your call.

IRISHMAFIA: You can make your assumtions. I've already made mine.

Sportsmanship (somebody verbalizing wrong number of outs). Make sure the game is played fair.

If you remember the movie about AIDS with Denzel Washington and Tom Hanks and Denzel keeps bringing up thinking like a six year old... There is our answer.

I'm 100% sure that is what ASA was thinking when they said not to call an illegal pitch when a player is in foul territory. :D

That may be OK in your little league or some other kind of recreational play. But that is not OK in a real game. Following your line of thought, do you have a "do-over" when a defensive player makes an error and allows a run to score? Or when a runner leaves a base too early, do you reset everything and do that over too?

I've made no assumptions. My posts on this thread have been made on point based upon the OP. You are the one citing a rule and then arguing the prerequisite to effect that rule.

This is actually in line with what I was referring. I'm not calling out, "hey, coach, you dolt, there's only 1 out." I'm simply calling out, "1 out"

Heck, maybe *I* have the wrong number of outs, and I need to confirm it with my partner.

That's not coaching. That IS preventative umpiring. Yes, preventative umpiring can sometimes be borderline coaching, but in this case, I think it's worth your while to make sure everyone knows the correct number of outs.

of course not steve m. Your extrapolation is unwarranted.

Play 10.1.2 Asa casebook

(FP Only) R1 on 3b leads off after a pitch to B2. The pitcher, after receiving throw back from catcher legally plays back r1 to 3b. While ball is alive, F5, pitcher and catcher meet nearest pitcher's plate to consult. R1, seeing home plate unprotected, leaves 3b and crosses home plate, scoring.

Ruling: It ain't that the run scores. Time out should be called by the umpire. Place R1 back on 3b.

If ASA wants that on that play, I think it is reasonable that ASA would want umpires to correct an erroneous verbalization of outs by either team.

Now for you word masters that see the word should, imagine you are at a tournament and this play happens and the UIC just happens to be the person who wrote or approved this play for the casebook. Think you ain't going to get dinged or come out on the wrong side of this discussion.

If they are not going to allow a run to score on this play, then they certainly do not want any shenanigans by an unscrupulous coach. Not part of Amateur Softball and good sportsmanship.

They go on further in this section of the casebook, to state that umpires could reverse a result of an umpires signal when it is obvious that the signal was incorrect. (home run called and ball not over the fence).

If a boneheaded call by the umpire can be rectified (cause it placed a runner or batter in jeopardy) even though it was obvious that it was wrong to everyone in the park and should have been noticed by coaches and runners, I am quite certain ASA wants both teams to know the correct number of outs when either team incorrectly verbalizes the number of outs.

What year case book are you quoting? The most recent I have is 2007, and a very similar play is 8-8-67B. The ruling is that defensive deception cannot be allowed to entice a runner to violate the look-back rule.

You keep trying to build your case using totally disimilar situations. For example, what possible connection does an umpire's late or changed call have to do with deception?

In the general case, it is certainly not illegal for one team to try to decieve the other into making a mistake so they can score runs or put out a runner. Before you become so sure that ASA wants all deception declared as USC, perhaps you could find some rules basis for your claim.

After a new pitcher has finished her warm ups, I've seen umpires go to the circle and announce the game situation. It can go something like this: Pitcher, you have the bases loaded with 2 outs.

IMO that's coaching. If her coach feels it's important for F1 to know the game situation, let the coach explain it to her. If there's a count on the batter, I will give the count before putting the ball in play. If asked by a player or coach I will give the number of outs in this situation.

Yup, I've seen that too. I agree - that's coaching.
I'll always give the count a delay and will always respond when asked the number of outs.

Yeah thats horrible. I dont know that thats coaching, I consider it "dancing bear umpire".

ROFL!!!!!!!
But then again, I'd rather coach than dance.
I suspect folks would rather see me coach than see me dance.

Which has also been referred to as the booging bear Blue.:D

Sorry Steve, there were mistakes by the umpire. They have been pointed out already.

Dakota,

I think it comes down to sportsmanship. That is a cursory answer at this time that ties all the dissimilar situations together. If the offense can't take advantage of the defense forgetting to call time out, why should the defense get to trick the offense or allow an incorrect verbalization to effect a game. If one is just ignorance, forgetfulness (umpire sees this and should call time-read interject himself into the game); and ASA does not allow it, why would we think they are going to allow deceit or incorrect verbalization to gain an advantage. To me, I see it as a sportsmanship issue and that is how i explain it at this moment.

Got the casebook at NUS in Jan 2003 in Fairfax Va. So, it could be 2002 plays.

Ron

One team tricking another team is not unsportsman like. That is a part of every sport there is. If you correct a coach based on that reason, that is plain wrong. Stating the outs (and not addressing the coach specifically unless they ask) as part of game management is one thing, deliberately interjecting yourself into a play, even a "trick play", is improper.

Trick plays are a part of sports. Leave that stuff to the coaches to sort out.

And there are "trick plays" that are also against the rules in ASA, such as a fake tag. ASA establishes that they can and will draw a line for deceptive plays. I'm of the camp that if a coach yells out the incorrect number of outs, I will declare the correct number of outs (in a non-directed manner). Just about every time, it's been due to a simple mistake, and it's been appreciated by the players whose games I've called.

For the record, the only time I verbalize outs during a game is when I am asked.

I think I do a lot. That may be the difference here. I yap all the time "ok lets go" "hey batter keep one foot in the box" blah blah blah blah. "thats 1" "we got 2".. its my method of keeping things rolling along. If I make eye contact with a partner after an out, I will usually give the outs by signal just to make sure we are on the same page.

If I have someone stating a number of outs different from what I have, I am going to make sure that what I have is correct. I don't want to do something stupid because I didn't know the correct number of outs.

I will call time, yank my mask, and ask my partner how many outs he has. If he agrees with me, we continue playing. If he disagrees with me, I am going to the scorekeepers to make sure I have the correct number. If what I do, helps everyone get on the same page, so be it. If what I do spoils some secret plot by the defense or offense to trick the other one, so be it.

Respectfully, I must disagree. Both teams have the responsibility to know the situation. I will not give out the outs unless I am asked, then I will give the information for all to hear.

Different wrinkle on the issue: in a situation where there is a scoreboard showing the number of outs, I will take time to try to correct the board or announce the number of outs when the scoreborad is incorrect. My reasoning is that the people running the scoreboard are to some extent an extention of the officiating crew, so really I am cleaning up my own mess. What say you, oh sage blues of the board? :)

But most of the time I am working of fields without such swank as scoreboards. I do, as a matter of routine, in my usual "patter" behind the plate, say things to the batter and catcher as we set up for the first time during an at bat, "OK, here we go, two down". After that they are on their own.

Going back to the original post, if both teams leave the field, then neither team knew the correct number of outs, so the defense should not gain from this by being awarded a 3rd out, right? I guess a strict interp of the rules quoted by On the other hand, if it was a planned play to catch the offense asleep, you would know it becuase the moment the runnner entered the dugout the opposing team would be very vocal about bringing it to your attention; excited that their trap had worked.

Ernie
ASA/NFHS Anchorage, Alaska

They will say that this, in so many words, is in the ASA umpire manual. :D

me too..

Guess I've spent too many years where either a scoreboard was a luxury or a nuisance. Either we didn't have one to go by, or the people running the scoreboard rarely updated it with sufficient frequency that players were all too often confused.

Again, I wouldn't come out and say, "hey, coach... You're wrong." I'd do something along the lines of, "BU, how many outs do you have?" to confirm my count. Heck, maybe *I* have it wrong!