Whoops!
 

NFHS. Two out, runner on 3rd, 2 strikes on batter. Batter swings at next pitch which is low and outside. Pitch hits dirt just before being caught by catcher. Catcher holds up ball as though she's caught it before it hit the ground. Plate umpire did not see or hear the pitched ball bounce into catcher's mitt, signals strike three, and apparently makes some statement to catcher that batter is out. Batter thinks she is not out, jogs and gets to first base. Defense makes no play on her as they start jogging off the field. Base umpire saw the ball bounce but doesn't say anything, waiting for plate umpire to ask for help. Offensive coach asks plate umpire to get second opinion from base umpire. Umpires confer, base umpire tells plate umpire it did bounce before being caught, plate umpire changes call and rules batter-runner safe. Defense then argues that plate umpire had stated batter was out which was the reason they didn't make any play on the batter and why they were coming off the field. Can't find this listed in the rule book as an appealable play. Should base umpire say anything until or unless asked by plate umpire? In this instance, runner on third did not try to advance, but if she had and she had scored while defense was jogging off the field, would the run count or should she be put back on third?

Any catcher worth their salt would have tagged that runner immediately, because that catcher sure as heck knew.

I would let the defense rot on their brain fart.

I agree with the point about the catcher, but is this obstruction by the umpire? I think the defense has a valid point. Once the ump states that the batter is out, you don't make a play.

there is a mechanic just for this case that the BU should use ...

if the 3rd strike pitch is not caught the BU should point to the ground to let the PU know, if it is caught simply make a fist to show it was caught - its not a signal, just signs to your partner

use of these would have prevented the situation

No its not obstruction by an umpire, its "out/safe" by an umpire, it is not tracking the ball by an umpire, and it is definitely an error by the umpire... the defense knew the player was not out. I think the defense has to eat it, and I think the PU needs to take his due heat for his major error.

2 in a row, Wade....

Exactly right.....

Players are not out because an umpire says so; players are out because a rule says they are out, and the umpire acknowledges that out. When it is clear that they are NOT out by rule, then the umpire must acknowledge they are not out, even if that means changing his call. You call someone out on a tag, then see the ball on the ground, they are safe, aren't they?

The umpire's statement that the batter is out doesn't change the obligation of the defense to actually get the out. In this case, not only did the defense err, but the defense attempted to deceive the umpire; even if it was unknowing, or even thinking the short hop is a legal catch. The ONE PERSON on the field that absolutely knew the ball wasn't caught in flight is the catcher, so she gets ZERO reliance on the alleged jeopardy resulting from the umpire having to change his call.

To the second point, if the runner from third had scored, then the runner from third scored. The third out was not made, the catcher was not put in jeopardy by the umpire, and nothing here made it a dead ball. The defense screwed up, and reaps the result.

ASSUMING the PU did in fact verbalize that the batter was out, then this is a changed call by an umpire, and the rule book does allow the umpire to rectify the situation. But, even so, there is no way an out should be awarded, and certainly not a do over. F2 tried to pull a fast one and got hoist on her own petard. Quit being so clever next time, F2, and just tag the batter.

The base umpire was aware of the "closed fist" signal but plate umpire never looked to base umpire for help. Knowing immediately that an error had been made, the plate umpire was not seeking help and a volatile situation was developing, was there any other action the base umpire should have taken before waiting for the plate umpire to assist?

Ding, ding, ding.....correct answer!

PU can't always see the short hop, especially on a drop ball close to the catcher. BU has a better look...help your partner.

Nope...as a BU in this situation, I'm going to continue to hold the pointed finger down toward the ground until my partner sees it or the play is over. If BU in the OP did give the signal to help his partner...the PU needs to eat this one and take the heat.

Would you please point me to the page in either the ASA Umpire Manual or the NFHS Umpire Manual that shows or states that this is an approved mechanic or signal?

no ...

so your local chapter does not use this mechanic - whether there are pictures in a book or not? if not, you should consider it ... it has helped us many, MANY times ...

What other unapproved mechanics or signals do you use?

Any double fist pumps?

Is your name Jim by chance? Do you play the piano?

Whoa, there, partner. You may disagree with it, but it is taught by umpires of high reputation and national standing.

The Umpire’s Edge–Mechanics
By Emily Alexander

Oh, I didn't say that I disagree with it. I use it when the mechanics say I can use it... i.e.: NCAA games. It's been made quite clear at the ASA national level that the mechanic described above is not an approved signal.

But my point wasn't to pick apart specific signals and mechanics and decide which are good (i.e.: U3K) or bad (i.e.: double fist pumps)... it was to point out that the umpire shouldn't use unauthorized signals for the code being worked. If the mechanics for that organization authorize the U3K signals, then by all means, use it. But if they don't, then it probably shouldn't be used.

I'm not disagreeing with the use of the signal, and have of course used it myself; however, NUS is teaching no more "secret signals" or unapproved signals by umpires. It was a major point at NUS. This would probably fall under that category.

So how does ASA want this type of play handled?

Ron

Fair enough.

Honestly, I dont know in terms of communication between PU/BU on a D3K. Maybe just a meeting after the play?

Youre asking the wrong guy because I often find myself at odds with what is being taught. I believe many things are simply to cater to the lowest common denominator of umpire; of which I am not. A lot of what they do is because they have to train 30K umpires, many of them nitwits.

eh?

this mechanic is certainly approved by my local ASA and my NFHS chapters .... again, you should consider it if you dont use it

Read Emily's description again......the first paragraph is talking about the signals that are there for all to see, ie; safe, out, strike, etc. She is advocating that those signals are to be crisp and strong and convey a message to everyone who sees them.

The point or fist signal used on a third strike is not in that category. It is a communication signal for use only between umpires. It is in the same category as the "infield fly is in effect" signal (yes, I know that one is mentioned in the book). I was taught this signal from the beginning of my umpiring career (by Emily, no less). It's a way for the umpires to communicate the situation without tipping off either the offense or defense and allowing the players to complete the play. If you don't want to use this signal, fine. Personally, I will use it anytime I am BU and there is a third strike.

No, its not the same as the IF signal. IF signal is in the manual. This one is not. Umpire - umpire nonapproved communication is exactly what they were talking about. Dont interpret this to mean i agree with them, because I dont. I think whatever you work out with your partner or is understood in the general umpiring community is fine. This type of communication is not allowed per NUS.

I agree the ASA instruction is to not use nonapproved umpire-to-umpire signals. I think you hit near the reason earlier (although I disagree with your general condemnation of the larger population of ASA umpires... sure there are some in that category, but the generalization is offensive more than helpful... but, nevermind, that is off point). The kind of signals used by the infamous poster to whom SRW referred is perhaps what ASA is trying to put a stop to.

Personally, I find the BU's D3K signal helpful. I think ASA should include it in their "approved" list. The only argument I can think of against it is that it definitely can signal to an observant coach that the BU disagrees with the PU's call, and if it is the BU that is wrong, trouble ensues.

Here in Pa, we're teaching that in the Fed meetings, using material from the state organization. And, we also teach it in ASA.

Same in Texas as far as NFHS goes. I think, though, as 3afan has pointed out, his metro UIC has apparently approved it, and I think that is how it is working here. Various state and metro organizations either approving or disapproving it.

SRW is infamous? I am ROFLMAO. We'll share a hearty laff this weekend while we work to train our two dozen new umpires (not counting the dozen or more from our youth umpire program). Anyway...

For those of you who work NFHS, one of the three points of emphasis this year is use of unauthorized signals. They don't want them. It's pretty plainly stated back there in the rule book...

ASA also does not want unauthorized signals. This comes from the very top -- I heard Kevin say those words in person. Whether it's to appeal to the LCD or whoever doesn't really matter, ASA doesn't want them. 'Course, that only applies to championship play, so feel free to use it along with the double fist pump, ignoring the inside-outside theory, 30-foot wide buttonhooks cuz it's easier to cheat than to hustle, etc. ad infinitum ad VERY nauseum.

Yesterday I worked a DH using NCAA rules (juco games), and twice pointed down and once gave a closed fist. I also think it's an excellent mechanic, and will lobby my neighbor, er, NFHS Official representative on the rules committee, to include them in the future. You all may feel free to do the same -- I think her contact information may be available on the NFHS site, and if not I will give you her info (yes I do have permission...and by the way Eric -- the coach in the wheelchair -- said it was ok to use his personal info).

Meanwhile, when working NFHS and ASA games, championship play or no, I will stow Peter Point and Closed Fist right next to my kitchen timer.;)

Sorry, I wasn't clear... I said I meantI changed the original post.

Yeah I don't wanna be infamous. I'm not that old, yet. :D

Think about it this way.. how many times has it help YOU as PU? I dont look over to my BU before making a call. Of course I'm willing to discuss a call like this with him in case it was short hopped or something and I missed it.

Do you turn to your BU before making calls?

I dont.

There are lots of arguments. This is just one of those communications umpires do.. without a lot of quantifiable purpose. Similar to the secret signal for "good call" on a banger etc.

I've used it. But I dont think it will ever be in the book.

Not in general, but how about this... pitch, batter swings and misses for 3K on a low pitch. You believe the ball was caught, but it was close. Batter starts running, F2 stands and shows you the ball. Would you glance at the BU to look for a signal, or just rule the batter out?

The signal is not useful on EVERY 3K, just on the ones where you, as PU, aren't sure.

My question would be: why do I need to rule the batter out? Its not an immediate concern. Its all live ball. I am more than willing to check for a short hop or something I missed. I'm not going to yell "youre out" to a "BR" running down to 1B. If that batter is out, she is out. We'll get it sorted out. If the catcher is standing there showing me the ball.. thats on F2 if she didnt really catch it.

Would you stop a the runner from running?

I agree it is not an immediate cocern, giving you time to glace at the BU. If the ball was caught, I'm not going to stop the runner from running, but I am going to declare her out. I realize it is not REQUIRED, and that the play, if any, is on the players. It is just what I'd do.