4th out situation
 

Situation:

R1 on 3rd, R2 on 2nd, 2 outs and 2 strikes on the batter.

D3K, R1 scores, R2 attempts to score but is thrown out at the plate to end the inning. BR never advances to 1B but stays in live ball territory until action is over. Catcher now tags BR for 4th out in an attempt to negate run scored by R1.

What is your call?

ASA rules?

Can only call 4th out on a runner that scored and violated the rules: missed a base, or left early on a caught fly ball.

Deny 4th out appeal. R1 scores.

That would be assuming ASA.

Correct

Mark would the fact that the BR not advancing to 1st not be considered a rule violation and be considered an appeal play which then could be used as a 4th out
Just wondering here.

BR didn't score. ASA Rule 5-5-B:

No.

The 4th out appeal only is valid for runners who have scored.

I see where you're going with this, but unfortunately for the defense, I've got 3 outs and R1 scored. She should have tagged BR and not R2. Once you've got 3 outs, you've got 3 outs, and your "fourth out appeal" can only be on a runner that scored. You can't "take away" an out.

Up until a couple of years ago, that exact same ASA case play had the run nullified on an advantageous fourth out. Not really an appeal, simply the BR before reaching 1B, but the principle is the same. ASA used to permit advantageous appeals after 3 outs on any runner, not just one who had scored.

However, for some reason unknown to me, they changed their rule.

I know of no other code that parallels ASA's in this regard.

In Fed, for example, the 4th out on the BR would nullify the run.

hmm.. I'm not aware of that difference. I've looked and dont see that. I am assuming you mean an appeal for 4th out on BR?

Where are you looking?

Thanks

NFHS 2-1-13
No mention of the appealed runner having scored.

Case Play
By implication, the appeal on R3 WOULD have been honored if it HAD negated the run, even though R3 herself did not score.

Rule 9-1-1 Exception e

hmm.. I'm not aware of that difference. I've looked and dont see that. I am assuming you mean an appeal for 4th out on BR?

It isn't technically an appeal. It's simply putting the BR out before the BR reaches 1B. We might think of it as an appeal because it comes after the third out, and apparently ASA doesn't differentiate, but an appeal is for a base missed or left too soon. When Fred Merkle failed to advance to 2B in 1908, that was just a force out, not an appeal play.

Take this play:

Abel on 3B, Baker on 2B, 2 out. With Abel off on the pitch, Charles hits a ground ball to F5, who sees Baker approaching and figures he'll tag Baker for the third out. Abel crosses the plate before F5 tags Baker, but then F5 realizes his mistake and throws to 1B for the (fourth) out on Charles.

Whether we call this an "appeal" or not, in ASA the out at 1B would not count and the run would score. In Fed and NCAA softball (and all the baseball codes), it would be nullified.

I dont think I ever noticed that, you certainly seem correct. thanks. To bad its not clearer or on the NFHS differences.. because that is a significant difference.

Now that we know that a fourth out appeal cannot be upheld on a runner who did not score . . .

Bases loaded, 2 out. BR hits a ball off the fence and misses 1B on his way around the bases. The three runners touch all their bases and score. BR is almost home when he sees the late throw arriving. When the BR hears the defensive coach say, "Just throw to 1B and appeal. He missed the bag by a mile," the BR catches the throw and tosses the ball into the dugout (or runs directly into the dugout to be declared out). The defensive team then asks for an appeal of the missed 1B.

Your ruling?

But a run did score on this play.
I don't have my rule book here at work and its been awhile since I read it, but the CASA rule book has a rule which states something along the lines of " No run may score if the 3rd out is a result of the batter not advancing to and touching 1st and or any runner not advancing to or touching the bag that they were forced to advance to."
This is not an appeal play as per say but an actual ruling in our rule book even though I might have miss worded what is actualy written. As the opening post said there were 2 out at the time.

If the 3rd out was the BR, then, you would be correct. But, the 3rd out was
R2 by being tagged. The appeal on the BR would be a 4th out, which isn't recognized by ASA unless it is for a runner that has scored and THAT runner is the one who committed the violation.

Gee whiz guys, this is a no brainier call. The run does not score (in any affiliation) because an out was made on the batter runner before they touched first. Don’t get caught up in fourth out appeals because there was NO appeal this is a standard definition of a force out. The runner was put out, either by tag or by bag, before reaching the base they were forced. No run will score if the third (fourth) out is the result of a force.

Bugg

Rule citation for ASA, please.

Did you read the OP? The third out was recorded when R2 was thrown out at the plate. R1 scored before R2 was tagged out. Run scores. Whatever BR did or didn't do doesn't matter, since the third out was already recorded.

You on the same page as the OP?

Soory guys but I got to agree with BuggBob. The batter is still obligated to go to 1st and it still considered a force. At the start of the play there were 2 out and the batter runner, whether it be the 3rd out or 4th out, it's still a force out and the rule book states what happens when the 3rd out or 4th out is a force out when the play starts with 2 out. no runs count.

Speaking ASA, where does the rule book say that? Citation, please.

You will notice that this whole thread has made a distinction between ASA and <s>(nearly)</s> everyone else. Nothing to disagree with there. So, I guess you are disagreeing with those who are stating the ASA rule. So, citation, please?

Soory guys but I got to agree with BuggBob. The batter is still obligated to go to 1st and it still considered a force. At the start of the play there were 2 out and the batter runner, whether it be the 3rd out or 4th out, it's still a force out and the rule book states what happens when the 3rd out or 4th out is a force out when the play starts with 2 out. no runs count.

You are 100% correct for every code on earth, including the Central African Pygmy Softball Association and the Yemeni Slayer-of-the-Infidel Softball Federation.

Except ASA.

That there is funny, I don't care who ya are... :D

Thanks. I've now edited my post to remove "nearly"... :D

It was clearly explained to our umpires on Monday.

Pretend you're the batter... and there's runners on 2 and 3 with 2 outs. You hit a ground ball to left field. The runner on 3 scores, but the runner on 2 is put out at third before you get to first base. You see the third out... what do you do? You trot in to the dugout. Why? Because there's 3 outs already. What incentive do you have to actually touch first base? You've got to get your glove and go play defense now.

They paid good?

The pay is great, they even pay mileage. But if you blow a call, it really doesn't matter. You know those beheading videos that were all the rage on the internet a couple of years back? Those were really umpires that the YSISF were unhappy with.

Hold on a minute. You guys don't know the whole story. Because of some recent unfortunate incidents, the YSISF has instituted a tough new rule. Anyone beheading an umpire is automatically suspended for 2 weeks. A second offense and the beheader is out for the season, with 20 lashes.

I won't say that umpiring the YSISF doesn't entail some risk, but most of the guys I know figure the benefits are worth it. After all, you do get paid in virgins.

And there's a big difference in the way they call obstruction. From ASA-YSISF rules differences:

ﯼﯠﮮﮦﺭﺤﺲﻬﻕﻓﻼﻴﻰﻓﻆףاتخءٮٯשەۜ۔ۀڭسװזء٩ٲٰڏٿ

I have some YSISF shirts and hats if anyone is interested.

CAPSA rules are actually pretty close to ASA's. Closer than Fed's, for example. The main difference is in the strike zone. Plus, the fences are shorter.

We're sooooo going to burn for this. I'm staying out! :eek: