ASA Look Back Rule
 

PLAY:

Bottom of 7th, tie score.

Two outs, R1 on 3B. Batter takes ball four. As the BR runs to 1B at full speed, the pitcher receives the ball IN THE CIRCLE and R1 returns to 3B.

She rounds 1B and comes to a stop after three strides. As the runner is returning to 1B, the pitchers fakes a throw toward 1B and the runner stops. Seeing this, R1 sprints toward home.

BU kills the play and rules the runner OUT on LBR prior to R1 touching the plate.

Is this the correct call?

no

Not as I understand it.

According to rule 8-7-t, "EXCEPTION: The runner will not be declared out if...1. A play is made on any runner. A fake throw is considered a play."

You usually don't post such plays when things are so obvious, so I've read this several times and can't see anything I missed, so I agree with Cecil... No.

Which runner is called out? The former B-R? Now called R2? And why was she called out? The LBR was temporarily suspended when F1 faked a throw. Did the BU allow enough time after F1 dropped her arm to re-instate the LBR?

IF YES, and R2 was standing still, then she is out by LBR violation - dead ball, R1 does not score.

Under that condition - call is correct.

WMB

Since it was noted the runner was called out prior to R1 touching home, I would think it was obvious BR/R2 was called out. I'll try to be more specific in the future :rolleyes:

Nah, this one is yours. The post clearly states the runner was ruled out on the LBR.

Really? Was it?

Reading something that isn't there. Dakota, please take care of this.

Let's see ...
1) the pitchers fakes a throw toward 1B and the runner stops. Seeing this, R1 sprints toward home.

Unsaid in OP, but was it implied?
2) "enough time after F1 dropped her arm to re-instate the LBR"
Maybe.

3) BU kills the play and rules the runner OUT on LBR prior to R1 touching the plate.


Apparently the issue Mike is after is :
"The LBR was temporarily suspended when F1 faked a throw.

Really? Was it?"

Is this the correct call?

No.

Now what's the catch?

I've got an illegal pitch, which should have been called as soon as the hands come together again. Before the runners even get started running. There is a time between when the illegal pitch has occured and the pitch has been released.

Okay, there may be a catch, but I haven't found it.

I don't see it as a correct call. When the pitcher faked a throw to first base, causing the runner to react, then the LBR is no longer in effect.

page 8-50 of casebook, play 8.8-64

Ruling: No penalty. The fake throw nullifies the look back rule (8-7T).

Wished the rulers would have stated when the lbr goes back into effect on a play like this. In addition, do not remember any clinician discussing this type of play.

So, waiting for guidance and the reasoning. Then i can answer the questions:cool:

F1 had the ball in the circle. BR runs to 1B and continues 3 steps past 1B, then stops, then returns to 1B. Does this constitute a LBR violation by the BR?

With F1 having the ball in the circle, isn't a base runner allowed one stop then immediate advancement or retreat to the next or previous base without causing a LBR violation?

There was no comment about the pitcher taking her place on the PP and bringing her hands to together in the OP. The pitcher simply received the ball in the circle. IP is not an option.

Okay Mike, I am with the rest of the bunch. What's the catch?

Are you in the right thread?

Bad call by the BU. LBR will not go back into effect until the runner running home has completed her play.

The runner that has come off 1b can stand there like a lump off a log and watch the runner from 3rd. Once the runner reaches home plate then the runner between the bases has to make a decision to advance or return given that the pitcher has possession and control of the ball in the circle.

This is incorrect. The actions of other runners have no effect on the LBR for any other runner.

LBR goes into effect once the BR has reached 1B and F1 in possession of the ball in circle.

It has nothing to do with what one runner is doing unless a play gets made on another runner.

LBR can be in effect on one runner and not in effect on another.

I'm a little confused by your post, so I'm not exactly sure what you are meaning.

In the scenario above, if the pitcher did not make a play on the BR, and the BR simply kept running to 2nd after rounding first and R1 came off the bag, R1 is out.

Okay, this is getting out of control.

The call is incorrect as most responded.

I must confess, this question was a set-up for the second one which hasn't drawn as must response as I was wishing.

Wadeintothem,

I was responding to the OP. I thought it had a runner on 3b who broke for home when the pitcher made a fake throw to the br who had rounded 1st.

Although this is a FP play, I thought about when time is called in SP to help me. You do not call time unless action has stopped or some wording similar to that. I saw this as analogous to our situation. LBR can not go into effect when it has been nullified by the fake throw until other action resulting from the fake throw has finished. Then I called Mike's counterpoint here in Northern VA and explained the OP hoping that my idea that it was incorrect was right. Then I posted my response.

And both have the same ruling.

ronald,

You are correct that the original call was incorrect, but other than that, your post wade and I resonded to was incorrect. If F1 is making no further play, R2 may not just stand like a lump while another runner is advancing. She needs to advance or retreat or she will be called out.

2nd time trying to respond to this thread.

The counterpoint I was referring to works ISF sanctioned tournaments (World Cup) and worked with Mike at the Central Atlantic Clinic.

I specifically asked her if the runner that was off first base could just stand off 1B and watch the runner run home and not be in violation of the LBR. The response was yes. The fake throw took off the LBR and now the other runner is completing a play. She made it know that the LBR is nullified with the fake throw and will not go back into effect until the runner from 3rd completes her play.

I may have mangled the description and misunderstood everything she said, but I do not think so.

If needed, I will email her the play.

Ron

It probably wont be in effect until the runner completes her play... since it takes about 2 seconds to get home. But LBR going into effect has nothing to do with R1 "completing their play".

Consider this.. F1, Fake throw, R1 takes off.. then pitcher stands with possession..

R1 in DMR (dumb move runner ??) runs back and forth between 3rd and home, changing directions twice or more.. can you guess what happens?

R1 "completing their play" has nothing to do with LBR.

If there was a play on the runner going home, that would be correct. However, if for some reason the pitchers simply stands in the circle with the ball simply ignoring the runners, there is nothing to support that contention. Of course, we all know that isn't going to happen.

Dakota,

Sounds like I am not expressing myself clearly.

I am saying that in the OP set forth by Mike, the runner that has stopped between 1b and 2b can do so and not be in violation of the LBR cause the LBR was nullified by the fake throw and immediate play by the runner at 3rd.

That is also how I interprets Mike's answer that the BU call was incorrect.

If Mike said that the call was incorrect, that means the ump got it wrong when the ump ruled a LBR violation.

I also understand that if a runner at any base is advancing as the BR is running to 1b after receiving ball four and then the BR rounds 1st and stops like a lump on a log, then the BR will be called out for a LBR violation. That is not what Mike set forth.

Ron

again, i may have mangled the description.

But I tried to ask specifically what Mike has posted that the "pitchers simply stands in the circle with the ball simply ignoring the runners.." Seems to be a disagreement between UICs if I have described it correctly.

Will email her.

Ron

A play on one runner does nullify LBR for another runner.
That is why in the OP its a bad call.

No one is disputing that that I know of.

One more time...

The LBR goes into effect when the pitcher has control of the ball in the circle and is not making a play (and BR has acheived 1B). A runner moving may continue to move and is allowed one stop. After the one stop, the runner must immediately move to the base of her choice without another stop. A runner stopped must move immediately, also, to the base of her choice without stopping again. There is nothing - NOTHING - regarding one runner moving that removes the obligation on another runner to move immediately once F1 is no longer making a play.

As Mike said, as a practical matter, F1 is not going to just stand there while a runner scores. But if she does, and if R2 also just stands still watching the other runner score, R2 will be out on a LBR violation.

R2's obligation to move has nothing - NOTHING - to do with R1 "completing her play."

if the lbr is not in effect at the earliest moment after the fake throw, when is it?

bu made an incorrect call (consensus of posters) and if we say he did it at the earliest point possible and is wrong, the only thing we have in the play to direct us is another runner advancing. thus r1 is the controlling element in our OP as to when the lbr will come back into effect not f1 in the circle cause obviously in the op f1 is in the circle with ball,etc and we said INCORRECT CALL. LBR NULLIFIED. When return, not when f1 with ball,etc... .

we have to come up with a point when the lbr comes back into effect. in our play, it ain't after the fake throw, ball in possession and control and in circle and ignoring other runners. otherwise, most would have applauded the bu for his call.

i posted an earlier play from a casebook. ruling was lbr nullified. does not say when it comes back on but mike's play and ruling (incorrect call) allows us to get a better grasp of when it is going to come back into effect after being nullified. it ain't going to be immediately like the bu thought.

The first time you said this, I was wondering what in the hell you were talking about. Now I have figured out, you mean "counterpart."

Dakota and wade have given you the correct ruling on LBR.

wadeintothem said:

"LBR can be in effect on one runner and not in effect on another."


How?

The LBR will be in EFFECT. However, one runner may have stopped while the other continues. As long as the runner continues, the LBR does not AFFECT that runner while it does the one who has used the one stop.

Mike, if you're not careful, you're going to get an "A" in English and spoil your image! ;) :D

"kills the play and rules the runner OUT on LBR prior to R1 touching the plate."

Does the work runner refer to R1 or the batter runner?

Ron

Fellow umps,

I guess I did not understand which Runner was called out. I am sorry for being a hard head on this issue.:(

I am going to assume my counterpart (will spell it right this time) did not understand me.

Dakota, Wade and Mike of course were right.

Ron