Pitching videos.

[Skahtboi]

Don't know if any of you have seen these yet (I am sure some of you have) from NFHS.

http://www.nfhs.org/web/2008/02/soft..._training.aspx

Applicable to most rulesets.

[SC Ump]

They are good and we have passed the links around our local association. Thanks for sharing.

One thing I would like to see more of, and learn more about, is a variation on the crow hop here. In the associated link, they show a style where the pitcher has his hands together, his feet leave the pitching plate and replant, his hands separate and he goes straight into the windmill. The base umpire is instructed to focus on the point of the feet at the time the hands separate for determining a crow hop.

What I think is not specified is the following situation which I see often in local NFHS ball: the pitcher has her pivot foot on the pitching plate, she separates her hands and moves her pitching arm back past the hip, her pivot foot drags forward. Then, as her arm start moving forward into the windmill, she replants her pivot foot and pushes off from that new spot several feet closer to the batter.

My previous understanding of the second situation was that it too was a crow hop. With my new understanding that for a crow hop it "only matters" where the pivot foot is at the time the hands separate, I am now calling it differently than I have over the last x years. I would just like further confirmation that I am understanding it correctly.

Any thoughts?

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by SC Ump

They are good and we have passed the links around our local association. Thanks for sharing.

One thing I would like to see more of, and learn more about, is a variation on the crow hop here. In the associated link, they show a style where the pitcher has his hands together, his feet leave the pitching plate and replant, his hands separate and he goes straight into the windmill. The base umpire is instructed to focus on the point of the feet at the time the hands separate for determining a crow hop.

What I think is not specified is the following situation which I see often in local NFHS ball: the pitcher has her pivot foot on the pitching plate, she separates her hands and moves her pitching arm back past the hip, her pivot foot drags forward. Then, as her arm start moving forward into the windmill, she replants her pivot foot and pushes off from that new spot several feet closer to the batter.

My previous understanding of the second situation was that it too was a crow hop. With my new understanding that for a crow hop it "only matters" where the pivot foot is at the time the hands separate, I am now calling it differently than I have over the last x years. I would just like further confirmation that I am understanding it correctly.

Any thoughts?

'
hmnmm that sound crow hoppish to me, I wish you could find a video showing what you mean. I've never heard it phrased that way.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by SC Ump

They are good and we have passed the links around our local association. Thanks for sharing.

One thing I would like to see more of, and learn more about, is a variation on the crow hop here. In the associated link, they show a style where the pitcher has his hands together, his feet leave the pitching plate and replant, his hands separate and he goes straight into the windmill. The base umpire is instructed to focus on the point of the feet at the time the hands separate for determining a crow hop.

What I think is not specified is the following situation which I see often in local NFHS ball: the pitcher has her pivot foot on the pitching plate, she separates her hands and moves her pitching arm back past the hip, her pivot foot drags forward. Then, as her arm start moving forward into the windmill, she replants her pivot foot and pushes off from that new spot several feet closer to the batter.

My previous understanding of the second situation was that it too was a crow hop. With my new understanding that for a crow hop it "only matters" where the pivot foot is at the time the hands separate, I am now calling it differently than I have over the last x years. I would just like further confirmation that I am understanding it correctly.

Any thoughts?

I would also like to be able to see a video of what you are describing. But, from what I am picturing from your post, this sounds like a replant, and hence an IP.

[Dakota]

He's describing the drag off the plate and a second push-off in front of the plate. While technically perhaps not a crow hop, it is still illegal.

[SC Ump]

Originally Posted by Dakota

He's describing the drag off the plate and a second push-off in front of the plate. While technically perhaps not a crow hop, it is still illegal.

To summarize my longer post above, the difference is basically:

1. hands together on pitching plate... drag or hop... replant... hands come apart.

- or -

2. hands come apart on pitching plate... drag or hop.... replant.... pitching motion continues.

In #1, the video and books this year specify that this is a crow hop. In #2, since the hands come apart while still on the pitching plate, the video infers that this is not a crow hop, even though I have always previously thought it was.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

He's describing the drag off the plate and a second push-off in front of the plate. While technically perhaps not a crow hop, it is still illegal.

Why wouldn't that be a crow hop?

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Why wouldn't that be a crow hop?

Thats what I'm wondering.. even his last post.. crow hop. I would like to know where he is hearing this and what he means though.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

Thats what I'm wondering.. even his last post.. crow hop. I would like to know where he is hearing this and what he means though.

It IS a crow hop, according to every definition in NFHS and ASA. This is a case where WMB has influenced with his PERSONAL definition of a crow hop, despite that it differs from the definition and the rule.

For the record, the definition of a crow hop NEVER states ANYTHING about the hands, either together or separated. The act of replanting and pushing from any place other than the pitching plate, before or after, whether stepping, sliding, or leaping, STILL meets the definition of a crow hop. It may ALSO violate other sections of the pitching rule, but it STILL is a crow hop.

The definition is exactly what its states. All of it, not just the narrow interpretation of individuals.

[BretMan]

In fairness to WMB, I would not characterize this as a PERSONAL or INDIVIDUAL interpretation.

The "before the hands separate" crow hop guideline appears in both the ASA and FED interpretational materials.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by BretMan

In fairness to WMB, I would not characterize this as a PERSONAL or INDIVIDUAL interpretation.

The "before the hands separate" crow hop guideline appears in both the ASA and FED interpretational materials.

I dont follow this... now I'm trying (for once!) not to jump on this issue to quick..

This is confusing the wording and basically saying "since the pitch doesnt start until the hands are separated (after bringing them together), she can bounce all around until her hands DO separate.

negative on that. You cannot do that. You have preliminary, start of pitch, and delivery. Each category is separate and distinct. If during her motion to deliver the ball, she crow hops/steps/jumps/leaps/hops, that is illegal. If she has an odd delivery technique which some how blends the 3 and is a legal delivery technique, that doesnt make it suddenly legal to crow hop/leap/step etc.

[WestMichBlue]

Originally Posted by SC Ump

One thing I would like to see more of, and learn more about, is a variation on the crow hop here.

What I think is not specified is the following situation which I see often in local NFHS ball: the pitcher has her pivot foot on the pitching plate, she separates her hands and moves her pitching arm back past the hip, her pivot foot drags forward. Then, as her arm start moving forward into the windmill, she replants her pivot foot and pushes off from that new spot several feet closer to the batter.

My previous understanding of the second situation was that it too was a crow hop. With my new understanding that for a crow hop it "only matters" where the pivot foot is at the time the hands separate, I am now calling it differently than I have over the last x years. I would just like further confirmation that I am understanding it correctly.

Any thoughts?

I agree with you; it is not a crow hop (based on the hands not separated definition). But it is illegal based on NFHS 6.2.C and ASA 6.3.J: "Pushing off from any place other than the pitcher's plate is illegal."

Likewise, picking up the pivot foot and replanting it on the plate is not a crow hop (crow hop is replanted in front of the plate), nor does it violate 6.2.C or 6.3.J. But it is still illegal. ASA calls that a "rocking motion" (6.3 H & I), NFHS considers it a step, then when the stride foot "steps" you are illegal because you are only allowed one step.

So if you move that pivot foot around, there are four distinct rules that can be violated - crow hop, step (or rocking), pushing off, and legal drag (or leap). Most umpires, if they are going to make a call, will call any of the first three violations a "crow hop." That's OK, as long as it makes it easy for them to understand, and nobody else knows the difference. Technically they may be wrong, but it is better to call the IP than to let it go as too many umpires are doing.

WMB

[WestMichBlue]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

It IS a crow hop, according to every definition in NFHS and ASA. This is a case where WMB has influenced with his PERSONAL definition of a crow hop, despite that it differs from the definition and the rule.

For the record, the definition of a crow hop NEVER states ANYTHING about the hands, either together or separated. The act of replanting and pushing from any place other than the pitching plate, before or after, whether stepping, sliding, or leaping, STILL meets the definition of a crow hop. It may ALSO violate other sections of the pitching rule, but it STILL is a crow hop.

The definition is exactly what its states. All of it, not just the narrow interpretation of individuals.

My, oh my. You are so sure of yourself; so arrogant in your interpretation of everything holy in softball rules that you have to demean anyone that has the audacity to challenge your supreme position.

So - here is your challenge for today.

ASA Mens FP. Pitcher takes big leap off plate, toes on pivot foot down. Hands separated, windmill has started. Pivot foot replants 3' in front of plate. Pushes, drags, or otherwise moves away from replant point forward towards batter.

CROW HOP? ? ?

WMB

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

My, oh my. You are so sure of yourself; so arrogant in your interpretation of everything holy in softball rules that you have to demean anyone that has the audacity to challenge your supreme position.

So - here is your challenge for today.

ASA Mens FP. Pitcher takes big leap off plate, toes on pivot foot down. Hands separated, windmill has started. Pivot foot replants 3' in front of plate. Pushes, drags, or otherwise moves away from replant point forward towards batter.

CROW HOP? ? ?

WMB

I dunno man, everythings starting to sound like a crow hop.

In our mens we dont call crow hop anyway.

In pitches like you describe the runners ask to run on the replant, instead of release.. kinda funny.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

My, oh my. You are so sure of yourself; so arrogant in your interpretation of everything holy in softball rules that you have to demean anyone that has the audacity to challenge your supreme position.

So - here is your challenge for today.

ASA Mens FP. Pitcher takes big leap off plate, toes on pivot foot down. Hands separated, windmill has started. Pivot foot replants 3' in front of plate. Pushes, drags, or otherwise moves away from replant point forward towards batter.

CROW HOP? ? ?

WMB

No challenge at all. The rule is clear. Drags, no. Otherwise moves away, no. Pushes, absolutely.

As you consistently turn this into a long and special diatribe, I will answer one time, and reference only the definition, rules, and rules supplements. No interpretation, no arrogance; read them and follow them. The rules have changed over time, so a historical recital is misleading, inaccurate, and immaterial. The rule is the rule, with no contradiction anywhere official.

ASA Definition: CROW HOP: Defined as the act of a pitcher who steps, hops or drags off the front of the pitcher's plate, replants the pivot foot, thereby establishing a second impetus (or starting point), pushes off from the newly established starting point and completes the delivery.

NFHS Definition: A crow hop is the replant of the pivot foot prior to delivering the pitch.

NCAA Definition: Crow Hop: An illegal act in which the pitcher's rear (pivot) foot leaves the pitcher's plate and recontacts the ground before the release of the pitch.

NCAA Rule 10.4.d.2: No crow hopping is allowed. The pitcher may not replant, gain a second starting point and push off her pivot foot. Once having lost contact with the pitcher's plate, the pivot foot may trail on the ground but may not bear weight again until the pitch is released.

ASA RS 40. F. "Pushing off from a spot other than the pitcher's plate is considered a crow hop and illegal.

1. A CROW HOP is defined as a replant of the pivot foot prior to delivering the pitch. This can be done by (1) sliding the foot in front, but not in contact with, the pitcher's plate; (2) lifting the pivot foot and stepping forward; or (3) jumping forward from the pitcher's plate with the pivot foot prior to starting the pitch.

STOP!! All of these are crow hops. It may be a step, but it is a crow hop. It may be slide, but it is a crow hop. It may be a leap (and, in MEN'S FP, the leap portion may be legal), but it a crow hop. IF THE PITCHER REPLANTS AND PUSHES FROM ANY SPOT OTHER THAN THE PITCHER'S PLATE, IT IS A CROW HOP!!

There is more text. Some points out that umpires should look at the pivot foot when the hands separate, because if the foot is already off the pitcher's plate, IT IS A CROW HOP. Nothing says, will say, or ever meant that if the hands separated sooner than the replant and push from a spot other than the pitcher's plate that it is NOT a crow hop. Because, that is a crow hop. By the definitions, and the Rule Supplement. Everywhere. Every rule set. It says so.

WMB, I have great respect for you in many areas. You are a leader in the umpire community. This is one area where you have created your own interpretation that is completely outside the actual text of every major rule set, and because you are respected, many umpires believe you. Please, stop preaching that to umpires. You want your pitchers to close their hips by bearing weight; NCAA rule is clear that they cannot. You want umpires to ignore the second push; the rule says we cannot. To call the pitch according to the rules, that is an illegal pitch, because it is a crow hop.

It may, as you have often pointed out, also violate other rules sections. Okay, I get that, too. But it is a crow hop. Telling anyone, umpires, coaches, or pitching students that it isn't a crow hop is wrong, and when they hear only "isn't a crow hop", they hear "it is a legal pitch". It isn't.

It isn't the rule. Read the rule.

And don't blame me in a personal way for making an equally determined statement that you are wrong in what you are saying, and misleading countless others.