Their only.....
 

Ok, all umpires. Guys. Gals. Old. Young. I have a simple request. But before I do I must explain myself. I have been lucky enough to umpire for enough time that it has allowed me to reach goals I had only dreamed about when I started. I have worked 4 ASA Nationals. Been able to work on Sunday for every one. I have done more State tournaments than my wife would ever like to be reminded of. I have worked ball from the smallest community league all the way up to Divisuion 1 NCAA college ball. I am lucky enough to have a daughter that has taken a liking to the same sport that I love. I have not totally given up my softball umpiring but I do enjoy help coaching my daughter team. It has actually helped my umpiring I believe. It has helped me see the game from the other side. As hard as most of the umpires I know that work at their side of the sport the girls work just as hard at it from the players side. Finally my request. Umpires. Umpires. Umpires. Please. Please. Please. Never. Never. Never let a coach hear you make the statement. Their only 8 years old. Their only 10 year olds. I don't care what their age is you as an umpire have a responsibility to umpire to the best of your ability not withstanding what the age of the player is. If you make this statement please understand your only making it because you don't have the courage or guts to make the right call. So if not, do your umpire friends and the players a favor. Simply stay off the diamond. You are screwing up a really great game! Rant done.

I would definitely agree with you. When I first started, I called boys' games for a local church league. I called the game to the best of my abilities, enforcing the rules to the letter (well, as well as I possibly could being a rookie). If the arch wasn't 6-12, I called it. If I saw obstruction, I called it.

And you know what? It HELPED those kids. They rose to the level of expectations, and they became some incredible ballplayers. I'm not saying I made them successful, but not giving them any slack for being under 13 did, if anything, help them along that path.

They're kids. But they're kids who will rise to the challenge.

You promise not to post that your 8U DD is an impact player, whine about daddy ball, or ask which $300 bat has more pop for an 8U player, I promise not to laugh at you and tell you they are only 8...

Oh and for the record.. I coached or worked in football and softball long before I umpired.. so I've seen both sides as well...

You promise not to outfit your T-Ball player in striped pants, stirrups, and cleats, then I promise not to laugh at you and tell you they are only 5........

Wade, I too coached before getting into umpiring - then went back to coaching (H.S. softball) before returning to umpiring for good. It was a shock to find out how bad some umpires really are. It was very hard to be at the receiving end of some of that crap.

However, to be realistic, I was coaching JV at a small rural school and all the good umpires were calling varsity games at the big suburban schools. That same concept may be part of the problem that caused Bandit's posting.

WMB

I don't...

That'd be a hoot!

THEY ARE ONLY 5 and 8 and 10..

Except for a SMALL minority of 10U -A, It is not serious ball... but the parents at this level are BY FAR the worst. I lose more umpires to this level than any other level. I have more problems with parents at this level than any other level.

It is not the umpires that need fixing at this level of ball.. its the idiot parents who think every crappy pitch is their future D1 scholarship.

I've heard that statement come from more than one umpire's mouth.....at least I think I did. It was hard to hear over the angry screaming parents yelling "you can't call obstruction!!! they are only 'insert age here'!! let them play.. Blue"

Did a post from eteamz sneak over here?????
:D :D

Pfffffft! :D

That will go on all year.

Usually a little less holier-than-thouish though. :cool:

Okay, but since this was left off the list, it is still okay to say, right?! They are only 12 years old. :D

Yup. Just being a SA.

I promise to NEVER say "their only 8, 10 (or even 12 ;)) years old." However, I might, from time-to-time, say "they're only 8 (etc) years old." :rolleyes: SA #2 :)

But if you say it, how are we to know the difference? :D

If they honestly believe that, leave! If they just want the kids to play, there is no reason to waste an umpire on a game for which they don't want the rules enforced.

They're looking for a babysitter and as the umpire, you are not getting paid as much as some babysitters.

You know, that is true about teaching as well. Seems I chose the wrong vocation and avocation.

I choose to stay, once you hired me its for better or worse. Of course, maybe thats why i get teased at the association meetings for being the umpire with the most fan ejections. (strangely enough, I've never been told I was wrong for any of those and it's been discussed at length)

I am curious. How does an umpire have a "fan ejection?"

"It's just you 'n' me in the parking lot after the game, Blue!"

Methinks that would qualify as necessitating an ejection, fan or not. ;)

It's pretty easy "IMHO" ... I just point and say you sir/ma'am are gone... they usually fold their arms and say "I'm not leaving" so I retort "yes, you are and if you aren't gone in the next two minutes your team will forfeit. works pretty well.

Must be some third world association. :D Just kidding.

Don't you have enough to deal with on the field? Do the rules give you the authority to forfeit a game because of a fan's actions? Do the fans get to you that easily?

Never ejected a fan, never had the authority to do something like that. Fans outside the fence are not an umpire issue. If a fan threatens you, that's not an ejection. That's 9-1-1.

Mike, I've looked all over, and I can't find 9-1-1 in the ASA rule book. Could it be next to "FUBAR" in the German dictionary? :D

Fan ejections
 

Well, I've got a couple of examples that led to the same bottom line:

14U game -- one team has blown a 7 run lead in the top of the 5th and time is running out -- after the 5th error of the inning a fan yells out "this is just HORSESH.T!! loud enough to be heard anywhere on my field or the adjacent field

All the park administration was at the other end of the complex dealing w/ something else at the time. I call time, I walk slowly to the dugout and I tell the coach -- "coach, he (the cusser) needs to remove himself". And he went.

This is exercising my authority under 10-1 of the ASA rules. And if the PU doesn't have the authority to have that fan removed, who the heck does? Every parent in the ball park EXPECTED me to remove that guy, and would have complained if I did not.

Second situation -- guy behind home plate dressed in a pig suit for a BBQ company (screened backstop so no visual distraction) is operating a "fart box". It took me a couple of innings to figure out what I was hearing but me, the catcher and the batter all figured it out when the pitcher was in her windup and this guy rips one and is quite pleased w/ himself.

Again, no park admin around. I go to the coach, tell him "the guy in the pig suit is running a fart box and has gotta go" and he goes. Any grown up coming to a ball park for kids dressed in a pig suit and running a fart box which is distracting me and the kids is damned well w/in my jurisdiction.

So yeah -- I agree 100% -- I've got more than enough to worry about ON THE FIELD -- but there are some situations that are so wierd that you have do what you have to do.

ABOUT AUTHORITY -- There are some places where you have more authority than others -- authority is not just what the rule book explicitly gives you, it is implicit in the expectations of park administrators, and to some degree the authority ceded to you by the fans.

And it varies from situation to situation. Those parents in the "horsesh.t" incident would have thought I was crazy if I held up the game for 10-15 minutes to get some administrator to come down there and accomplish what I did in 30 seconds. Now, if I was at a different park w/ a different group of people, or a more hostile group of people, or a more litigious group of people, maybe I would have called 911. But in that moment, in those 2 situations listed above, I absolutely had the authority, and it would have been ridiculous not to use it.

But normally I do leave fan conduct up to the park administrators -- but there is some "demarcation line of craziness" that will cause me to act

And one final comment -- I have NEVER, EVER threatened a forfeit in an ejection, removal, disqualification incident. Didn't need to. I don't take on the offender once I've ordered them removed. I find another coach, a head coach, someone w/ a VESTED INTEREST IN CONTINUING THE GAME AND IN GETTING ALONG W/ ME and I get them to do the removing. And it works.

I'm sorry, but you are going well beyond the scope of ASA rules. If it is a local/complex/park rule which gives you that authority fine, but using 10.1 is a bit much.

I should have mentioned this... I only do FED ball during the season and some USFA and AFA during the summer.... All ejections were during the FED season..... No I dont have rabbit ears (not abnormally so.) But, we are on school property during a school event... language is appropriate to anything a teacher would allow in a hallway during normal classes. as an example: ejection on SS for saying "b*llSh*t... she also caught a in school suspension. Adults who drop the F-bomb are gone... adults who say "Blue you suck" (not that they would ever say that about me ;) ) are ignored... till game management walks over .

Youre going through the coach...

When you say you ejected a fan the vision is that YOU eject the fan, when instead you are going to the coach.

There is no prob with what you did.. I probably wouldnt have worried about the guy who yelled "this is horse----" .. but the fart box distracting the players is probably a little much.. But you know, people use blow horns and everything else.... heck the girls chanting is probably worse.

Fed is another story. Then again, is there not supposed to be a school administrator on site for all games? Since it is their school and their responsibility, it would be their job to handle anything outside the fences.

BTW, who really cares who says what? How is the word "bull$hit" going to hurt anyone? Is it detrimental to the psyche of the farm kid whose chores include cleaning out the barnyard before coming to school? Unless the word is directed at someone, who really cares?

Some umpires are really touchy about the slightest cuss word.. you'd think the poor lil thangs are gonna melt if they hear it..

I'm on the trailing end of my last kid becoming an adult.. I can assure every umpire, they have heard the word before.

Conduct
 

Well, this is gonna be my last word on this -- but my wife is a school teacher and I am a parent w/ 3 kids who have all played ball growing up. I believe I have a pretty good feel for what parents and administration expect out of me when it comes to dealing with over-the-top fans.

I can tell you that in my umpiring experience that in many cases the umpire is THE authority figure at the park, unless it is a tournament, school or college setting. The lower the level of ball, the more likely it will be that "you're on your own"

Part of the problem w/ society today is that teachers and other authority figures tolerate way more than they should because of legal fears, lack of administrative support, eroding standards, etc.

So what if the kids have heard cussing before -- I can tell you where I live people expect those in authority to rein in and to curb such behavior. I,m not talking about rabbit ears umpires -- I'm talking about idiots who don't know how to act around kids, or in a church league setting, etc. The people that I work for, that my association works for, absolutely expect that sort of behavior to be dealt with.

I am not looking for it, I am not listening for it or seeking it out in any way -- but I can forcefully deal with it in a polite, most of the time discreet way when it happens -- by myself if practical, but by engaging administration if need be

I am not a prude, not particularly religious either -- just a guy w/ enough common sense to not hide behind a rule book that doesn't happen to have an explicit rule covering fart boxes or people screaming "horsesh.t" at 12 year old kids

LOL.... whatever.:)

Exactly... you read my mind.

the correct term around here is "cow pattie" not the other....

Well ask yourself.. if they are so worried about it, WHY are you the only figure there?

Maybe the different route to take is to tell them what is going on and tell them they need to have someone there. This is what I did last year with the 10U rec parents who were out of control. When the "purple" team was playing, I made the league prez have someone there, because it was affecting my younger umpires.

Then you have gone beyond the scope of NFHS rules. That is why NFHS expects schools to provide an onsight director (an official school employee). This is not the scope of sports officials, as Mike has already pointed. If you hear something inappropriate, can you inform the school administrator? By all means. But you do not eject a fan. Nothing to allow you to do so.

Mike has pretty well covered what I was hinting at (as could be expected.)

The field and players are your domain. So yes, you can eject the SS. However, the fans are not your domain, even if they drop the F bomb. That, once again, is for the on sight administrator to tend to.

And herein lies the problem. I am a teacher. If I am busy listening to what is going on in the halls or in the classroom next door, how do I have time to attend to my teaching duties in my classroom. And believe me, I am as tough a displinarian as you will find. There are things written all over this school about me because of how tough I am. (And they aren't too nice!)

When I umpire, my duties are on the field, between the fences. (My classroom, if you are missing the analogy.) I have way too much to do there to spend my time policing the domain of the on site administrator. (These folk get extra pay to be here. They are paid to police the crowd and to be there in the event of any major problem. I have found most do an excellent job, but there are those that might need a little prodding to their job.)

Am I hiding behind the rule book. No. I am doing the job for which I am being paid.

Wow !!!!
 

It is amazing how far this thread has gone. My original thought was to please ask umpires to not be-little the efforts or ages of ANY softball player. And this has gone to comments about 300$ bats, daddy ball and finally some umpires who think that not only is it ok to but their responsibilty to "police" the crowd. WOW! What scares me is that while your taking care of the crowd who has "never" scored a single run in ANY game that I have ever officiated your screwing up a really great game that is going on between the fences. The best line in this entire thread was when when one gentleman stated something to the effect of that particular comment would be his last. thank god.

Conduct
 

Folks -- I'm not talking about Fed ball, college ball or even well run rec ball -- hell, that's the easiest ball to call because you do have outside controls and sanctions available to restrain egregious behavior -- I'm talking about the kind of ball where the umpire is pretty much it as far as controlling the field for a safe and appropriate environment for kids.

When an administrator is NOT present, or is unavailable, I am not going to bury my head in the sand because "it ain't my job". I have seen too many episodes where taunting between the first and third base bleachers a) distracted the kids trying to enjoy the game when parents were acting the fool, or b) worse, the situation escalated into "fighting words" either behind home plate or in the parking lot. Police were called, in several cases, because the umpires let situations get out of hand when a firm hand minutes earlier would have stopped it cold.

An authoritative umpire working WITH and THROUGH coaches can nip that stuff in the bud -- most of the time it has the effect of reminding the folks that they are there to watch their kids and that they may be deprived of that if they continue.

I'm not viewed as heavy-handed and I have had the opportunity to officiate many games thru the years involving bitter rivals where trouble might be expected -- and I think I've had 5-6 ejections in 20 years

The governing boards where I work know they are not gonna have a bunch of extracurricular crap going on in the stands. They know I expect the kids to play and hopefully have fun but I absolutely expect to grown ups to act like adults.

Hell, it is a requirement in the Philadelphia sports arenas that each parent and grandparent teach their kids the proper etiquette to support their team. It's not hard and most kids pick it up by the time they are 5 years old.

It goes:

_________________________ SUCKS!
(enter opponent's name here)

When they hit their teens, each child is required to take it to the next level to be considered a true Philly sports fan.


That one goes:

_________________________ F***ING SUCKS!
(enter opponent's name here)


Once they get old enough to possibly inherit the family's season tickets, each child must take it to the final level to qualify for the tickets.


The final exam goes:

_________________________ F***ING SUCKS!
(enter opponent's name here)

This is accompanied by a minimum 50' toss of a half-full beer cup in the direction of the field/floor/opposing player.
And you wonder why opposing players don't like Philadelphia fans :rolleyes:

Rubbish. You hit the key words, parents and administrators.

Behavioral issues off the field are their responsibility, not the umpire's. When you show up to officiate ANY sporting event, you are there for a specific reason and, as mentioned earlier, not to babysit.

I really don't care how you run your life and raise your kids, that is not only your business, but responsibility. The same as it is for every other family out there. You may have a wonderful sets of standards set for your children and if you are successful with getting your children to understand and accepting them, great job. However, that doesn't mean you get to determine how others live.

If you take offense to how things are going, stop the game and tell the coaches to deal with it, but do not use the rule book as your authority, it isn't. For as much as there is nothing in the rule book giving you the authority outside the fence, there is also nothing which requires you to continue a game under unacceptable conditions. Again, let the people whom are responsible for those in question handle it. And, if they refuse, those people you can get rid of.

You said:And Mike offered a way to do it properly. But this following statement you made implies that even if an adminstrator is present, you still see it as your job to police the stands:

Your first line of action if there is administration available, should be to alert them, and then turn your focus back to your duties.

SHhhh

We've given your post all due consideration, now leave us be, there is a better topic at hand.

Everyone i can see and hear when I am calling a game is subject to MUH AUTHHHHORITY (ok that was a bad southpark imitation) but taken with a grain of salt it is actually true. I truly dont see the difference in either of the following scenerio's and I've done it both ways...
Scenario #1. Fan is dropping f-bombs in a FED game... I call time.... walk off the field and find "game management" who is usually 500 yards away at the gate collecting gate fees, I tell them i have a fan that needs to go, they proceed to walk with me back to the field, we have a nice little chat about our children and the weather, upon returning to the field, he/she asks ok who is causing the problem? I point at the person, he/she asks me "do they need to go?" I nod yes.... he/she proceeds to remove the person.
Scenario #2. Fan is dropping f-bombs in a FED game... I call time.. point at the person and say sir/ma'am you are gone. watch fan leave... announce play ball. between innings i send a runner to tell game management that a fan has been ejected (with details as to what team they were with and anything else i deem pertinent. by next inning game management appears and we talk about the ejection, they says sorry (dunno why :rolleyes: ) and then thanks for handling it. :)

I am sure most of you have seen or discussed this:
http://www.roanoke.com/news/breaking/wb/68849

What's the rest of the story?

As long as she is assaulting the police officers and not the umpires.. ;)

Maybe that is the difference. Around here, the site admin are hovering around the back of the crowd and the people charged with collecting game fees are doing their job. Often, the admin will hear something before those of us on the field do. Sometimes, we have to engage them to do their job. And once in my career, it resulted in a report being sent to state and the admin who was also an AD of the school receiving an official reprimand, because he actually left the site when asked to remove some rowdy/cussing fans. Luckily, another coach was there and he stepped in and performed the job the AD should have. (Oddly enough, he is now that school's AD.)

I can appreciate that and given those set of circumstances, I agree wholeheartedly.... and I apologize for participating in hijacking this thread..:o

Coach's brother did not like call at 3B, got on umpire's case with words that were personal. Umpire asked site rep to remove the brother. Brother refused to go, continuing to heckle umpire. Police were called.

When Coach saw her brother being escorted from the park she left the dugout and, with her mother, confronted the police officer. Apparently situation got out of control, more police were called, and all three (mother, brother, and Coach) were arrested.

Now you know the reeeeeeeeeeest of the story!

WMB

Oh, and Dad, also a SB coach, is claiming police brutality.

Went to a FED rules meeting Wednesday night and this was quickly touched on. main point was "I (umpires on the field) have no control of fans and things outside of the playing field and I can't throw them out....but I can keep the game from continueing until they leave" Also mention that if AD isn't there that the Home coach gets "promoted" and it is their responsiblity to deal with unruly fans.

BTW Serg JJ said HI!!

The family that wails together jails together. :rolleyes:

Funny how that police brutality always seems to come up huh? In the words on Jim Carry in Liar Liar when a client asked for legal advice when arrested again for something he said "Stop breaking the law a$$hole" one of favorite lines ever.

I know there are true cases where cops go crazy, but a lot of these cases are BS, "when I tried to pull away he squeezed my arm and I got a bruise" well if you are under arrest stop trying to pull away....DUH, stop breaking the law a$$hole.....

No need. It is a time-honored practice on this board. ;)

Yeah, some people complain about it, but it is more recreational bi.tching than anyone expecting anything to change... :)

Why? Look at how much all of us have learned as a result of this hijack!! :D

Yeah, my favorite Girl Scout cookies are Samoas. What's yours?

Somoas are indeed a very good cookie... perhaps 2nd only to the best GS Cookie.. Thin Mint.

I'll have to cast my vote for the PB Sandwich Cookie as the best.

Looks as if another hijack has occurred. :eek:

Is orange one of the team's colors? If so, coach could just wear her jail wardrobe to the game...

Yeah I love promoting a 110lb female and telling her to go throw out a 220lb ignoramus thats p*ssed off as h*ll.... yeah thats gonna happen :rolleyes:

Gimme your associations mailing address, i will send y'all a package with two things rolling around in it.... try em out they work great. :D