Wheelchair on the field

[greymule]

We had a rules meeting tonight, and the ASA state UIC told us that if somebody wants to bat, field, or coach in a wheelchair, we have to permit the person to do so. Otherwise, we'll be getting a call from a lawyer, etc.

I'm wondering (1) how we can go along with that if we feel the presence of F3 in a wheelchair is unsafe, and (2) how we deal with somebody who is obviously not disabled but insists on using a wheelchair anyway (just to be a jerk).

Not that I think this is ever going to happen, but there are a lot of things going on today that I never thought I'd see.

[BretMan]

Even before the UIC told you that, this has been in the rule book for sometime. So it's not something new. And not only does the rule cover both offensive and defensive players and coaches, it applies to umpires, too!

I've never had it come up, so I'm just going by what's in the book (R/S #55 and rule 4-2).

My reading is that it is mandated to comply with the American Disabilities Act. There is also a stipulation that it applies to players that meet the ADA's definition of "physically challenged".

That probably precludes somebody trying this "just for the fun of it".

[greymule]

Thanks, BretMan. Yeah, I see that now. That section has been expanded since I last read it, which was long ago.

So who gets sued when somebody breaks his neck after falling over the wheelchair?

[wadeintothem]

Lemme check my "things to worry about as an umpire" list..

yep, there it is! I found it! Right there below remembering to throw away those old line up cards that get stuffed into various pockets of your equipment bag.. "Worry about a kid suing me after getting injured on a softball field tripping over a wheel chair."

Ok, now that I'm done with that one, let me move up the worry list a few steps... where did I put those bicep pads I never wear and will never wear that came with my chest protector???? hmmm

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by greymule

So who gets sued when somebody breaks his neck after falling over the wheelchair?

I don't know. How many lawyers can dance on the head of a pin?

The wheelchair has a legal right to be there. The softball organization has a legal duty to comply with the ADA.

Barring some willfull intent to cause harm by the chair user, maybe nobody gets sued. If the chair is there by the mandate of Federal legislation, whose "fault" is it that it's there?

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by greymule
So who gets sued when somebody breaks his neck after falling over the wheelchair?

Originally Posted by BretMan

I don't know. How many lawyers can dance on the head of a pin? The wheelchair has a legal right to be there. The softball organization has a legal duty to comply with the ADA. Barring some willfull intent to cause harm by the chair user, maybe nobody gets sued. If the chair is there by the mandate of Federal legislation, whose "fault" is it that it's there?

Being sued and being sued successfully are 2 different things. Expect the lawsuits.

P.S. Lawyers dance on opur heads not on pins.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by fitump56

Being sued and being sued successfully are 2 different things. Expect the lawsuits.

P.S. Lawyers dance on opur heads not on pins.

OTOH, there is no such thing as a cost-free lawsuit, even if not successful.

But then, we could sue the chair manufacturer for (1) making the chair field-usable and (2) not making it quicker to move.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by greymule

We had a rules meeting tonight, and the ASA state UIC told us that if somebody wants to bat, field, or coach in a wheelchair, we have to permit the person to do so. Otherwise, we'll be getting a call from a lawyer, etc.

I'm wondering (1) how we can go along with that if we feel the presence of F3 in a wheelchair is unsafe, and (2) how we deal with somebody who is obviously not disabled but insists on using a wheelchair anyway (just to be a jerk).

Not that I think this is ever going to happen, but there are a lot of things going on today that I never thought I'd see.

NOTE: the following is a demonstration of the 2007 ASA Rule Book in pdf format... and I'm using (da, da....) a PC! ... but I digress...

ASA 3-6-E:

E. CASTS/PROSTHESES. All casts and splints must be padded. Prostheses may be worn. Braces with exposed hard surfaces must be padded. Any of this equipment judged by the umpire to be potentially dangerous is illegal. Any decision by the umpire should be based on whether or not a device worn or used by an individual with a disability changes the fundamental nature of the game or poses a significant risk to the safety of other players.

I can't imagine how, in a normal fastpitch game (that is, not a game specifically arranged otherwise) F3 in a wheelchair would NOT change the nature of the game and would NOT pose a significant risk to the safety of the opposing runners.

To quote a famous movie character, "Don't let's be silly."

[BretMan]

Is a wheel chair a "cast", "splint", "brace" or "protheses" that is "worn"?

The way I'm reading this is that those devices are subject to some umpire discretion. Wheel chairs are not, by the guidelines of rule 4-2 and R/S #55.

I'm not trying to be silly, but sometimes when a Federal mandate butts heads with common sense, you wind up with a big heaping pile of "silly"!

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Is a wheel chair a "cast", "splint", "brace" or "protheses" that is "worn"?

The way I'm reading this is that those devices are subject to some umpire discretion. Wheel chairs are not, by the guidelines of rule 4-2 and R/S #55.

I'm not trying to be silly, but sometimes when a Federal mandate butts heads with common sense, you wind up with a big heaping pile of "silly"!

No, it is not "worn" but it is "used". Note this sentence in the rule: "Any decision by the umpire should be based on whether or not a device worn or used by an individual with a disability changes the fundamental nature of the game or poses a significant risk to the safety of other players."

There is nothing special about a wheelchair among the other devices used by people with disabilities, except that it is large and relatively immobile (compared, for example, with a cast or prosthesis). And, there are a huge variety of wheelchair designs, some specifically designed for athletes to use.

Saying that wheelchairs MUST be allowed is as silly as saying they WILL NOT be allowed. The umpire judgment on safety and changing the nature of the game is the deciding factor in each situation.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by bkbjones

One of our top coaches in the Seattle area is wheelchair bound and has been for years. He is in an electric wheelchair. We have had what I wouldn't even term close calls, but maybe in his general area. He coaches third occasionally, and neither I nor most of the other umpires up here would think of not allowing Eric on the field. (There are probably a couple who wouldn't allow him out there, and that is easily fixed: don't assign that umpire to any of Eric's games.)

Plus he's a nice guy most of the time, always respects umpires, and has no reservations about requesting time to chat with an umpire who may have blown a call due to lack of hustle or otherwise sleeping on the job.

Eric's team is the Absolute Blast, and he is the organizer of our Labor Day exposure tournament. Many times, we have used his tournament to evaluate some of our younger/newer umpires at a higher level -- and Eric has always been wonderful about letting us do that.

I'm 100% certain that if Eric's condition deteriorates he will be off the field before we can even broach the subject.

Need to be careful about the amount of information you post on here that someone else might not appreciate. Using just the info you provided in the post, I can tell you Eric's last name, his address, phone number, email address, some girls who played for him(at least two of which are playing for the U of W)...etc. It could be possible that this is information, nice guy or not, he wouldn't want shared. JMO.

[Dakota]

It seems to me there is a big difference in the areas that the rule says are the pervue of umpire judgment (the fundamental nature of the game and significant risk to the safety of players) between a coach in a wheelchair and an infielder in a wheelchair. The OP was musing about an infielder, F3, in his "what if".

How could F3 in a wheelchair NOT be a safety hazard on a pick off attempt?

[bkbjones]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

Need to be careful about the amount of information you post on here that someone else might not appreciate. Using just the info you provided in the post, I can tell you Eric's last name, his address, phone number, email address, some girls who played for him(at least two of which are playing for the U of W)...etc. It could be possible that this is information, nice guy or not, he wouldn't want shared. JMO.

Not a problem. All of that info is already out there on the web at either his team's website or the business website (Absolute Mortgage). At any rate, so as not to offend anyone I have deleted my post.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

Need to be careful about the amount of information you post on here that someone else might not appreciate. Using just the info you provided in the post, I can tell you Eric's last name, his address, phone number, email address, some girls who played for him(at least two of which are playing for the U of W)...etc. It could be possible that this is information, nice guy or not, he wouldn't want shared. JMO.

Boy, if that isn't a load of legal bull****. If you can determine that information, then it was public knowledge. If it is general knowledge, there should not be an expectation of privacy.

Just like myself. I have an unlisted phone number, yet it is published in certain locations. However, the person looking for it would have to know where to look which isn't necessarily general knowledge. But I have put it out there, so if someone gets a hold of it, that is my fault, not the person who finds it.

Then again, what is simple and sensable in real life has no standing in the legal community where some questions asked with the expectation of a response wouldn't cut the mustard in a third grade social studies class.

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by greymule

We had a rules meeting tonight, and the ASA state UIC told us that if somebody wants to bat, field, or coach in a wheelchair, we have to permit the person to do so. Otherwise, we'll be getting a call from a lawyer, etc.

I'm wondering (1) how we can go along with that if we feel the presence of F3 in a wheelchair is unsafe, and (2) how we deal with somebody who is obviously not disabled but insists on using a wheelchair anyway (just to be a jerk).

Not that I think this is ever going to happen, but there are a lot of things going on today that I never thought I'd see.

1) You have no choice but if your org isn't providing proper insurance, shoot the head of it. That kills that snake. 2) See Number One.

hopefully your org has thought this ahead and requires these players or coaches be cleared (checked) first.