OK, the ASA needs to clarify this...

[JPRempe]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

The weight, distribution of weight, and length of the bat as well as all other characteristics of the bat must be permanently fixed at the time of manufacture and may not be altered in any way thereafter...

This statement seems to say it all.

Again, this does not even come close to a perfect solution. The more you take 'legal' at bats and BP with a composite ASA bat, the more the "fixed at the time of manufacture and may not be altered in any way thereafter" characteristics of the bat change! Do you guys really mean to tell me you don't know what happens to composite bats the longer you hit with them?

The walls become thinner due to loss of material from repeated impacts with 'legal' BP and game usage. You can hear the material rattling around inside the bat (this is resin/glue and composite material from the bat itself)! The bat hits the ball harder and harder with the same swing speed and same incoming pitched ball speed, resulting in a higher true batted ball speed. This batted ball speed increases as the overall life of the composite bat decrease (sometimes proportinally, sometimes not) The bat is altered physically by exactly following the ASA guidelines!

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by JPRempe

Again, this does not even come close to a perfect solution. The more you take 'legal' at bats and BP with a composite ASA bat, the more the "fixed at the time of manufacture and may not be altered in any way thereafter" characteristics of the bat change! Do you guys really mean to tell me you don't know what happens to composite bats the longer you hit with them?

The walls become thinner due to loss of material from repeated impacts with 'legal' BP and game usage. You can hear the material rattling around inside the bat (this is resin/glue and composite material from the bat itself)! The bat hits the ball harder and harder with the same swing speed and same incoming pitched ball speed, resulting in a higher true batted ball speed. This batted ball speed increases as the overall life of the composite bat decrease (sometimes proportinally, sometimes not) The bat is altered physically by exactly following the ASA guidelines!

ASA and the bat manufacturers know this. ASA has still approved these bats, therefore they have approved of the ongoing changing characteristics. When the bat is manufactured, the manufacturer is well aware of the changing characteristics. They are a factor in the design of the bat. And as such, are permanently fixed at the time of manufacture.

So if rolling and vicing produce exactly the same characteristics as the manufacturer designed into the bat, and ASA approved, what is the issue?

[JPRempe]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

ASA and the bat manufacturers know this. ASA has still approved these bats, therefore they have approved of the ongoing changing characteristics. When the bat is manufactured, the manufacturer is well aware of the changing characteristics. They are a factor in the design of the bat. And as such, are permanently fixed at the time of manufacture.

So if rolling and vicing produce exactly the same characteristics as the manufacturer designed into the bat, and ASA approved, what is the issue?

That's the exact point of the folks who roll/vice their bats. What's the difference?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

ASA and the bat manufacturers know this. ASA has still approved these bats, therefore they have approved of the ongoing changing characteristics. When the bat is manufactured, the manufacturer is well aware of the changing characteristics. They are a factor in the design of the bat. And as such, are permanently fixed at the time of manufacture.

So if rolling and vicing produce exactly the same characteristics as the manufacturer designed into the bat, and ASA approved, what is the issue?

Most on this board have not had the opportunities Steve and I have on this point.

We have been through sessions conducted by a bat manufacture's rep who formerly worked in the dept at Washington State that developed the standards and testing.

Rolling or vicing a bat are referred to as Accelerated Break In (ABI) methods that do alter the characteristics of the bat. A bat is manufactured to meet specific standard and restrictions that should not be exceeded at the bat's peak performance period.

Bats are meant to wear and break down in a certain fashion. Using an ABI weakens the integrity of the bat and causes the bat to peak in 1/4 of the time it was manufactured to last. Remember, we are talking about composites which will break down and literally fall apart in some cases.

More often we are beginning to hear a rattle in some bats. We are being told that this is part of the shell starting to bread down or evidence that someone has tampered with the inside of the bat's shell. I have also seen a bat which has been rolled have it's paint/seal break down and create a crack in the barrel.

Additional thoughts on rolling a bat, and vicing in certain areas, also causes parts of the barrel not often used to contact the ball, thus not manufactured to wear the same as the "sweet spot" of the barrel which also weakens the integrity of the bat.

While not the sole reason some of these bats shatter, it certainly can be factor in the cause. Now you have a safety issue possibly aided by the ABI method.

Probably not the response you wanted, but that is pretty much how ASA and the bat manufacturer's see it. Also, whether you agree or not, ASA's testing and standards efforts are the most comprehensive of any sanctioning body, so I would pretty much give Dr. Lloyd Smith's lab work and findings the benefit of any doubt there may be.

[JPRempe]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Most on this board have not had the opportunities Steve and I have on this point.

We have been through sessions conducted by a bat manufacture's rep who formerly worked in the dept at Washington State that developed the standards and testing.

Rolling or vicing a bat are referred to as Accelerated Break In (ABI) methods that do alter the characteristics of the bat. A bat is manufactured to meet specific standard and restrictions that should not be exceeded at the bat's peak performance period.

Bats are meant to wear and break down in a certain fashion. Using an ABI weakens the integrity of the bat and causes the bat to peak in 1/4 of the time it was manufactured to last. Remember, we are talking about composites which will break down and literally fall apart in some cases.

More often we are beginning to hear a rattle in some bats. We are being told that this is part of the shell starting to bread down or evidence that someone has tampered with the inside of the bat's shell. I have also seen a bat which has been rolled have it's paint/seal break down and create a crack in the barrel.

Additional thoughts on rolling a bat, and vicing in certain areas, also causes parts of the barrel not often used to contact the ball, thus not manufactured to wear the same as the "sweet spot" of the barrel which also weakens the integrity of the bat.

While not the sole reason some of these bats shatter, it certainly can be factor in the cause. Now you have a safety issue possibly aided by the ABI method.

Probably not the response you wanted, but that is pretty much how ASA and the bat manufacturer's see it. Also, whether you agree or not, ASA's testing and standards efforts are the most comprehensive of any sanctioning body, so I would pretty much give Dr. Lloyd Smith's lab work and findings the benefit of any doubt there may be.

I agree that the ASA has the most extensive testing procedures when compared with the other major associations out there. I don't think there's much to dispute that.

But ...how about the the legal and natural usage of the composite bat in ASA play? It will continually get "hotter", for lack of a better term, over the course of it's life. Are these factors truly part of the consideration when a bat goes through the ASA testing standards? Or are they just using an average/median formulation? To what point do they test the comosite bats like the Combat AntiVirus and Miken Freak98? If they literally take each and every bat to the end of it's useful life, they're going to find out the 98mph barrier will be exceeded by some of these bats.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by JPRempe

But ...how about the the legal and natural usage of the composite bat in ASA play? It will continually get "hotter", for lack of a better term, over the course of it's life. Are these factors truly part of the consideration when a bat goes through the ASA testing standards? Or are they just using an average/median formulation? To what point do they test the comosite bats like the Combat AntiVirus and Miken Freak98?

The standards are based on the bat at hits "peak" or "hottest" for a lack of better term.

If they literally take each and every bat to the end of it's useful life, they're going to find out the 98mph barrier will be exceeded by some of these bats.

Yea...if they've been shaved, weight distribution changed or the manufacturer cheated and lied. But then again, nothing I say to you is going to sell you. And I would probably be cynical too, if I didn't have the opportunity to hear and talk to Dr. Smith and the Worth rep over the past two years.

[JPRempe]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

The standards are based on the bat at hits "peak" or "hottest" for a lack of better term.



Yea...if they've been shaved, weight distribution changed or the manufacturer cheated and lied. But then again, nothing I say to you is going to sell you. And I would probably be cynical too, if I didn't have the opportunity to hear and talk to Dr. Smith and the Worth rep over the past two years.

I'm not cynical due to inexperience with the subject. I've done plenty of my own informal scientific testing using batted ball speed (using local upper level players) as well as reading some extensive research done by Kettering University, and have also been in contact with the good folks from Anderson Bat Company about their facts, figures, and research. I love physics and physical science, and this is just a hobby of mine! You should see my R/C aircraft, boats, and vehicle collection which I use to test various scientific instruments. I figured I would just apply one hobby to my new hobby of umpiring as well (pertaining to bats and balls, what happens when they're hit, etc etc).

I do truly enjoy umpiring, and enjoy the brotherhood/sisterhood of my fellow blues...
Anyway, I don't mean to sound cynical, Mr. Rowe. I just have some other information which has been compiled from other sources

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by JPRempe

I'm not cynical due to inexperience with the subject. I've done plenty of my own informal scientific testing using batted ball speed (using local upper level players) as well as reading some extensive research done by Kettering University, and have also been in contact with the good folks from Anderson Bat Company about their facts, figures, and research.

Yes, I'm familiar with Dan Russell, also.

I love physics and physical science, and this is just a hobby of mine! You should see my R/C aircraft, boats, and vehicle collection which I use to test various scientific instruments. I figured I would just apply one hobby to my new hobby of umpiring as well (pertaining to bats and balls, what happens when they're hit, etc etc).

The biggest problem to make it as close to perfect as possible is that the "on field" action cannot be consistantly duplicated. However, just watching the slow-motion film of a pitched ball hitting the swinging bat is unbelievable. The extent to which the ball "collapses" around the bat and then rebounds is pretty amazing.

Anyway, I don't mean to sound cynical, Mr. Rowe. I just have some other information which has been compiled from other sources

But the issue is that we have the best information we can presently get and the rules are based upon it. Whether one believes it or not is actually irrelevant as we are bound to enforce the rules as umpires. In turn, such an umpire could be held liable if they choose to ignore the rules that some believe could save a player, coach or fan their life.