Shirt quality versus pricing?
 

Any opinions on where to buy the best "bang for your buck" shirts.... I purchased my shirts from *gasp* Academy for around $20 bucks apiece last year and most of them have those nasty little "pulls" in the material... So its time to get some new ones.
I've looked online and without actually being able to feel the material and compare,"and ignoring all the advertising hype" whats the best ones to get? durability is a issue as is climate..it's pretty hot and humid 99% of the time down here in Louisiana.
So any help in this area would be appreciated.

I have been using the Dalco shirts exclusively for about 10 years now, and I really like their weight and performance. Here is a link to a place that sells them about as reasonably as anywhere I have found.

Thanks.. I took a look like you suggested. on the plus side a few of the guys I worked with this weekend have those same shirts and had some good things to say.
Thanks again.

You are certainly welcome.

a big $1.05 less than ASA's price for plain powder blue shirts...and their shirts last forever!

Sorry, whose shirts last forever?

I've got some ASA shirts that I've had for 3 years, and they've held up just fine. It's a matter of taking good care of them. I use color-safe Tide, and I never put them in the dryer. My buttons haven't turned pink, the powder blue hasn't faded, and the material still breathes as well as they did when they were new. I could probably get another couple of years out of them if I keep rotating them (I rotate between 5 shirts, calling between 200 and 250 games per year).

They certainly last longer than my hats...

Heck, I would pay several bucks more for a Dalco over the ASA shirts. To begin with, they are not as thick as the ASA shirts, which in the heat equates to much cooler. They do not have the oversized collar, but more of a regular polo shirt collar. They have a pocket, whereas the ASA ones don't. And, I have never seen the buttons on a Dalco shirt turn that pinkish lavendar color that the ASA buttons tend to do over time.

So, that is a big deal when you consider that the Dalco's are cheaper than ASA's as well.

My shirts have to have a pocket. although I wish they would put a little velcro closure tab (hidden inside the pocket) which would help keep things from possibly falling out when bending over to brush the plate.

I don't have any problem with the quality of the ASA shirts. My problems with ASA shirts are with the quantity, for lack of a better term. ASA has cut the sleeves a bit shorter than others. I suspect that the ASA sizes that are used are just slightly smaller than those used by others. An XL size to the ASA manufacturer is just a little bit smaller than an XL to Cliff Keen or someone else's manufactirer.
I don't care about a pocket, I would not put anything in a shirt pocket anyway.
I'll take quality over cost any day.

My biggest problems with the ASA shirts are the shorter sleeves, tighter fit, color changing buttons, and that over-sized collar. I never use the pocket on any of my HS and college shirts, either.

I use Tide with the color-safe stuff, and I don't put my shirts in the dryer. My shirts no longer get the pink buttons, even after a few years of use.

What do y'all do with the lineup sheets/holder and bullet pencil? keep them in the ball bag? or go fishing around for them in your pants during a lineup change?

Dave,
Agreed. No dryer means no pretty punk buttons. However, the sizing issues remain.

I wear two ball bags. The right bag is for any spare game balls I might have and my brush. The left one has lineup card holder, 2 pens, a towel and a few mints.

I never use a pencil; too likely to conflict with the coach's writing, break the point, etc. I have even heard coaches swear that a change was accepted and then erased. Always use a pen, preferably red, so my markings are clearly different than the coach's. It belongs in the penholder slot sewn in the ball bag. I also doublebag; but keep one pen in each, so that a wild ball doesn't break both of them at once. My left bag also keeps a cheap pair of reading glasses, and a back-up indicator.

Personally, I prefer my lineupcard holder in my back right pocket. It's always there, so no digging necessary. I keep it there even when I am on the bases, because it also holds my bat ring and bat list; and it does a good job of keeping plate brush bristles out of my butt.

Other than that, where I call ball, it is just considered unprofessional by UIC's, evaluators, and conference coordinators to keep any of those items in a shirt pocket. It has been explained to me that if they are there, they are there just for show; kind of like the breast "pocket" in a suit or sports jacket.

I never use a dryer for any of my umpiring clothes. Never have. Yet I still get the pink-lavender buttons.

I also wear two ball bags, and it is pretty much the same scenario as Steve mentioned, though no mints!

I've been told that the "funky colored buttons" are a result of sun exposure, creating an ultra-violet reaction with materials in the plastic.

Strangely, among my "official" ASA shirts, all purchased through the "Officials Gear" website over consecutive years and all cared for exactly the same, some have the faded buttons and some do not.

Our ASA state commissioner requires that we wear the shirts he sells with his logo on them (not the official ASA letters). Whatever, the shirts seemed to be the same shirt sold by official ASA, but with different embroidery, until (apparently due to repeated requests from some umpires) he added a breast pocket and moved the logo to the opposite side. I don't know if the new shirts are from a different manufacturer or not. I don't own any of the "new" style.

But, anyway, the old style (same manufacturer as official ASA) are very nice shirts that wear forever but have several annoying aspects... the overly large collar and the buttons that go pink.

And, don't tell me if I launder the shirt "properly" (even though there is no agreement on what that means) that I won't have a problem with pink buttons. When have you ever seen a group of men who know how to do laundry "properly"?

BTW, I've never used bleach or detergent containing bleach, always drip-dried my shirts and McDavid wear - I didn't want the heat or the anti-static sheet messing with the fabric's wicking qualities. I have no REAL idea whether that caution was justified, but that is what I did. And, I still got pink buttons.

All that said, the worst shirts out there for wear and looking good after more than one season are the ones from Honigs. Not only do they have the ugly Honigs logo on the back, the fabric just does not look good around the collar area after a season. It gets the fuzzies very easily.

non of my softball shirts have the pocket. Some of my baseball ones do, and I do use it occasionally. I may drop my indicator into in between innings depending on what I am doing (getting balls, water, etc.) That way I am not digging in my pants pocket or ball bag trying to find it. I will also use back pockets of my pants for the same thing. It just depends on what mood I am in I guess.....

I was told at an ASA National School, several years ago, to put nothing in any of your pockets. "That is why you have a ball bag". With that in mind, I have always used the pockets in the ball bag to hold my lineup card holder, as well as an extra indicator, a flipping coin, and the bat ring.

Okay, this should spark a little discussion. Then where to you put your brush and bat ring when working the bases? :rolleyes:

Sorry, left out a couple of key points.
1) This was meant for PU's who were 'seen' with lineups sticking out of shirt pockets and back pants pockets.
2) I umpire in MN, and we almost never have BU's. :p

Just another case of an individual UIC stating a personal preference, rather than an ASA standard.

I have now umpired in 23 ASA National Championship Finals, more than several at the higher levels (Men's Masters 40+ Fastpitch, Men's A Fastpitch, 18 Gold, Mens' Major Modified, Men's A Modified, Men's 10 Man Modified), and have never kept my lineupcard holder anywhere BUT my right rear pants pocket. It has never been mentioned in any written or verbal evaluation as being inappropriate; and, trust me, I have seen pretty insignificant stuff written up.

For example, one year it was 97 degrees with 90%+ humidity, working 18 A National in Columbus, GA, I was plate umpire drying my head with a towel between innings when a coach came up and gave me a substitution. I left the towel on my head to finish, set the hat I was holding on top of the towel momentarily, pulled the lineupcard holder out of my back pocket and recorded the change. Then I removed the towel, finished mopping, put the towel away, reported the change to the other team. After the game, the NUS UIC told me he watched that exchange, and thought it umprofessional of me to leave the towel on my head when interrupted by the coach. This was also on my written evaluation; but, no mention that the lineupcard holder was (incorrectly?) in my pants pocket. Personally, I thought the comments were petty, given the conditions; but, still apparently nothing wrong with the location of the holder.

I always read the softball threads to remind me how different softball umpires are than baseball umpires.

We don't worry about these things, I guess. I've seen baseball umpires use back pockets, ball bags, shirt pockets for lineup cards. Me? I use a shirt pocket or plate coat pocket and it's why I don't wear a pullover jacket on the plate -- I must have my pen and lineup card in my shirt/coat front pocket and my pullovers don't have pockets.

So let me turn this around and ask a question -- why would anyone care where a lineup card is kept as long it's easily accessible by the umpire when needed?

Shirt quality vs. $$$
 

:) I have 4 different mfg.s shirts of whick I like the Cliff Kleen and the super-soft shirts from www.theofficialschoice.com. The shirts are great quality, soft & cool for summer time, and they have a long sleeve shirt that is nice for the cool to cold days. Pricer are "right" too. Try one, you will like it. As a suggestion, do not have them put the number's on. Have it done somewhere locally. That part I was unhappy with. Other wise, great shirts.

Honig's has changed the collar material to match the material used by Cliff Keen. As far as I'm concerned, it's the best shirt on the market now.

And if I am not mistaken, doesn't Cliff Keen also have an exposed logo on all of their shirts, ala Honigs?

They have a small patch at the hem of one sleeve. Honig's has a larger embroidered logo below the collar on the back.

Not everyone takes pride in their appearance or has been trained to do so, and when speaking to the masses, it's probably easier to make a blanket statement than judge on an individual basis.

I personally think that having a white piece of paper sticking out of your shirt pocket or your back pants pocket looks pretty tacky. However, for those of us who care, we will put the lineup sheet in a lineup holder and make sure it is not visible.

Line-up cards, holders, pen, pencils, etc. tend to fall out of shirt pockets during the game.

I tend to keep my line-up card holder in my back left pocket. There is nothing exposed, so no one knows it's there, but me. I keep it there so I can reach for it with the left hand while the right hand is pulling the pen out of my ball bag.

I have never used a "lineup card holder." I normally get a hard cardboard lineup card and fold it in thirds. I clip the pen to my pocket.

Different strokes, I guess....

Do you supply these, or are all the coaches in your area just that considerate? :)

"Different strokes ..." is fine, Rich. But obviously you do not sweat heavily, like I do. Anything I'd have in pants pockets would be soaked, and a shirt pocket would be wetter. I'll keep mine in a holder that's in a ball bag.

As for a manufacturer's logo/emblem on the shirt - OK, no problem. I prefer the Cliff Keen shirts. I think the most durable shirt I've got is one of my older ISC shirts - made by "AIS" with a small flying 'A' logo on a sleeve.

You made me spit.

White pads in the mask, too?

I use a lineup card holder. someone "borrowed" my holder I got at my last national, so for a time I used one of those handy insurance card/registration things for your car. A little large...in fact due to a misunderstanding it got me in a lot of hot water...but it served its purpose.

I have been on both sides of this fence. Loved those pockets when I was doing "just" baseball, but I like having it in my card holder in my pocket. Anytime I "just fold it up," that's what it looks like...and that looks like $hit.

Well, I'm just lucky, I guess. I ask for the cardboard backing at the plate meeting if they don't already have it in hand to give to me.

Actually, I wear a helmet most of the time, but I think my mask (+POS AUL300) pads are tan. But if I wanted blue, red, or whatever, I wouldn't get any grief for wearing them. It's a mask. Again, I only work baseball now.

Exactly. A sport where the uniform isn't expected to be "uniform". A game where coaches don't expect the professionalism of their umpires to be displayed by their uniform, equipment, or mechanics. An association of officials who display their individualism, rather than their unity.

Thanks for coming over here to remind me why I stopped working baseball years ago. Well, one of the reasons; not to forget the 3 hour games watching pitchers trying to pick off runners almost standing on the bag, the sheer boredom of all the delay and downtime, the whiney players, and the ridiculous attitudes of the coaches.

Dakota,

Which Dakota are you from, north or south?

dh

Neither. Dakota County, MN.

Here's a story I'd like to hear

TC,
If BK's car insurance holder is like mine, It's bright red and larger than a lineup card holder. I don't think Mike would care, but I know a who lot of others that I think would care & would make a notation.

Then there are people like me, who find it appalling that umpires are expected to give up every inch of individualism, that I would be "worried" about not having the lineup card in the wrong place, etc.

It insulting to me for you to think I'm less professional than you because I can choose a mask color or have a big silver New Balance "N" on my shoes or because I point to the side when calling strikes. I dress the way I can in my sport, but my pants are always pressed, my shoes shined (I jumped on and right off the patent leather brigade), my uniform cleaned.

And how about my strike zone, my mechanics, my hustle, my rules knowledge, my demeanor, and my ability to handle situations?

Personally, I think softball umpires worry too much about things completely irrelevant to the quality of actual umpiring, but I'm not the one putting a group's professionalism down here, just noting some differences and wondering why the groups are so different.

Ever been in the military, Rich?

Speaking ASA, a part of being an umpire is appearance. Yes, in your game, I'm sure your a cleaned and pressed with the best of them, but umpires in non-matching uniforms and equipment on the same field just doesn't look right to many, including me. I started in baseball at 14 and left what little I was doing at the time at 36.

Much of the difference is we all belong to a single, nationwide organization. When we walk on the field, part of the key is for the teams to not know the difference between umpires. ASA prefers a uniform presentation and I believe it actually helps sell the umpire's image.

Many baseball umpires "think" we are robotic in our signals. We are not. We all use the same base, but there every umpire has their own little character included in many calls. Many may not notice because you haven't been through some of the training we have. That is another point. Our training is based nationwide. The UICs are trained to train and take the tools and methods back to our local associations and train others. Unlike our local baseball brethren, we don't just slide a tape in the VCR for the trainees. I'm sure that is not done everywhere, but everywhere in baseball does not have the national-based support group an ASA umpire does.

One of the best compliments I've received was at the Men's A Industrial National Championship. Halfway through the game, a coach came up to the PU and myself and said, "you guys must be local and work together all the time." When asked what gave him that impression, he responded, "well, you are always in position, you are not getting into the other guys area and you barely speak to each other." He was shocked to find out that the PU and myself had just met each other about an hour before the game and we really never got a chance to talk things over with the guy working 3rd because he was just moved to this game off another field.

Our training and uniformity is what allows this impression and better yet, to actually work a game with a complete stranger and do it well. And I think you would agree that is a good thing.

I agree also...as a newbie I work towards looking and acting like any umpire i perceive to be professional and competent, not only in making calls but in appearance. as far as I have been trained (clinic'ed) the only latitude we have in FED, ASA and USFA ball regarding personalism is during a non-swinging, non-dropped third strike call. and have been told countless times that being "unique" on the field just draws attention to yourself and that is a big no-no.

I would imagine someone who struggles with reading comprehension would be insulted a lot.

After reading the nine-page, 125-response thread over on the Baseball Board, regarding which color of ball bag looks the best, you might surmise that baseball umpires suffer from the same affliction. ;)

You believe that because that's what's been taught to you. It doesn't make it inherently correct.

I prefer this quote, myself:

"One of the really wrong theories about officiating is that a good official is one you never notice. The umpire who made that statement was probably a real poor official who tried to get his paycheck and hide behind his partners and stay out of trouble all his life. Control of the ballgame is the difference between umpires that show up for the players and the managers." -

Umpire Bruce Froemming

Not same, but related. I guess it would be easier if some national association told us what to wear, but it wouldn't be as much fun.

Good umpires in baseball can do the same just as easily. I worked a college conference tournament this year with guys I'd never met until that day. We worked CCA mechanics, 3-person, and had an abbreviated pregame and everything was covered correctly. We didn't talk to each other during the games at all, if I remember correctly.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are good and bad baseball and softball umpires out there, probably equally on both sides. I try to learn from good umpires no matter the sport. I shake my head at bad umpires, regardless the sport and remind myself to pack it in before it ever just becomes a paycheck.

I gotta get back to the ball bag argument on the other board now :)

You'll not find too many MLB umpire groupies on this site. But, regardless, there is a big difference between wanting to hide to stay out of trouble with his call versus wanting to showboat with Naked Gun mechanics and patent leather ball bags.

God, for a second I thought you said "patent leather ball gags." What a difference a letter can make!

Nor does it make it incorrect or wrong as many little ball guys who jump on this board insist. I am not counting you among them, but it happens. It is, however, correct to the organizations the umpire has chosen to join. And since it is their sand box, you play by their rules. If the umpire doesn't like it, they can go elsewhere. That is a choice we all make.

Nothing new here. I agree with Froemming. It isn't the point that umpires are noticed, but what caused them to be noticed. A sports official is part of the game and his presence is required. I've met many people who extol the point an umpire isn't noticed. I've also seen these same umpires ignore calls to maintain that status. That is neither good for the umpire or the game.

Something tells me we work from very similar playbooks.

Speaking of playbooks, time to put the knickers and white hat on and go do one of those football games.

I'm pretty sure he was talking about making the correct call in difficult situations.... not about wearing (ohhh lets see... just from this weekend's tournament) patent leather military shoes... pants so tight they ride up halfway up the shin guards...white gardening gloves (my personal favorite yes!!) hats on backwards (sigh) ballbags on the bases) and a myriad of bad mechanics. these are the things i dont want to be noticed for. now wearing a nice quality low priced shirt would be ok ;)

Let's eliminate that patent leathers from that list. The other items are gross items that some basic training, if not common sense, would take care of.
I have worn that patent leathers, and probably will continue to in some games. I will probably not replace them, when the time comes. Regardless of the "standard", I do believe that they add to the positive impression I want to make when I take the field - but, as I said, I will probably not replace them and I will be semi judicious as to where I wear them as I do accept and abide by the "standards" of whatever sanctioning body I am working for.

Now, I've seen pants that were too tight and clowns with backwards hats - I think they're matched by players and other punks who wear their hats sideways. I've seen slow pitch folks with ballbags on the bases. But I have never seen white gloves on an umpire - what the devil is the reason for that?!?!

Ohhh...I forgot to mention...that I am SUCH a hard a$$...in slow pitch games, I make all players wear their hats with the bills forward. No sideways or backwards hats. I think it is one of the reasons some of my peers here love me soooooooooooooooo much.:mad:

Not to pick-nits or anything, but these were patent leather military shoes.... flat smooth soles... not the patent leather athletic type. the white gardening gloves were some type of sun protection (i'm guessing). call me crazy, but if i had to dress like this guy to protect myself from the sun.. i'd take up referee'ing volleyball.

Presumably, not beach volleyball! ;)

hrmmm... tall, fit women in skimpy outfits.... i think i'd wear gloves or whatever i had to.... or maybe just watch them on tv. ;)