Worked at the PFX tour this weekend - Part I: The Ugly

[Julio Caliente]

[QUOTE=IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Al

I don't understand why this call would be any different than the 50 other calls at 1st base?

It really inst different mechanically excpet not as enthusiastic. I think it is called "weak" because they aren't safe until they touch the base.

Originally Posted by BretMan

Al,

The instruction given for most in the baseball world tells the umpire that when a runner misses the plate NO signal is given.

ASA umpire mechanics are different on this point. The manual says to wait a second for the players to react, then give a safe signal.

Why the baseball and softball world are divergent on this point, I don't know. But it's just another one of those little things to keep seperate for guys that work both sports.

I was taught in baseball to signal safe. They had attained the bag (as long as their entire body had passed the bag), there fore they are safe until an appeal is made.

[BretMan]

Julio,

I was referring to plays at home plate only.

If you have a baseball mechanics manual, compare this to the ASA guidelines.

[Al]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Julio,

I was referring to plays at home plate only.

If you have a baseball mechanics manual, compare this to the ASA guidelines.

Thanks guys!

I just found the following information on a web site...

MISSED TAG OR BASE RULE

The first answer is from the N.A.P.B.L Umpire Manual which is now available in bookstores. The second is from clinics I've attended and articles in "Referee" magazine:

"On a play at the plate, should the runner miss home plate and the fielder miss the tag on the runner, the umpire shall make no signal on the play. The runner must be tagged if he attempts to return to the plate; if he continues on his way to the bench, the defense may make an appeal."

"On a play at first base where the runner beats the catch of the throw, but misses first base, the umpire signals and calls safe. The runner beat the throw so he is safe. The missing of the base is an appeal of a base running infraction and must be made by the defense, not the umpire. If the defense appeals before he returns to the base you then call the runner out." Don't ask me why the two plays are handled differently. I don't know. They just are according to the official rulings. Submitted by: Jim Booth

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I don't know what baseball league I was playing under all the years I played but it was in New Jersey and there was always a "no call" when the runner missed the plate even if the defense was ten feet away. Glad I didn't have this situation happen when I was behind the plate a few times towards the end of this season...especially during championship games. ...Thanks again... Al

[tcblue13]

Originally Posted by Al

Thanks guys!

I just found the following information on a web site...

MISSED TAG OR BASE RULE

The first answer is from the N.A.P.B.L Umpire Manual which is now available in bookstores. The second is from clinics I've attended and articles in "Referee" magazine:

"On a play at the plate, should the runner miss home plate and the fielder miss the tag on the runner, the umpire shall make no signal on the play. The runner must be tagged if he attempts to return to the plate; if he continues on his way to the bench, the defense may make an appeal."

"On a play at first base where the runner beats the catch of the throw, but misses first base, the umpire signals and calls safe. The runner beat the throw so he is safe. The missing of the base is an appeal of a base running infraction and must be made by the defense, not the umpire. If the defense appeals before he returns to the base you then call the runner out." Don't ask me why the two plays are handled differently. I don't know. They just are according to the official rulings. Submitted by: Jim Booth

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I don't know what baseball league I was playing under all the years I played but it was in New Jersey and there was always a "no call" when the runner missed the plate even if the defense was ten feet away. Glad I didn't have this situation happen when I was behind the plate a few times towards the end of this season...especially during championship games. ...Thanks again... Al

I believe the difference is because one is a tag play and the other involves the throw beating the runner to the bag. The play at home also allows the runner to leave the field at the play's conclusion. In both cases, the D can appeal.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Julio Caliente

It really inst different mechanically excpet not as enthusiastic. I think it is called "weak" because they aren't safe until they touch the base.

Speaking ASA, not sure about others

Not so. By rule (8.3.B), a runner which passes a base is considered to have touched the base. Well, if they are considered to have touched the base, then they must be safe. Of course, they are still in jeopardy via an appeal.

This is where the difference between some baseball and softball occurs.

Many baseball umpires, usually old timers, consider calling a runner safe and then out on an appeal as a "reversal" of the same call and consider it to show weakness in an umpire. Same mentality when being asked to go for help.

In softball, it is considered two independent rulings. Some consider it "coaching" a team if no call is made, thus tipping off one or the other of a problem.

[Julio Caliente]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Speaking ASA, not sure about others

Not so. By rule (8.3.B), a runner which passes a base is considered to have touched the base. Well, if they are considered to have touched the base, then they must be safe. Of course, they are still in jeopardy via an appeal.

This is where the difference between some baseball and softball occurs.

Many baseball umpires, usually old timers, consider calling a runner safe and then out on an appeal as a "reversal" of the same call and consider it to show weakness in an umpire. Same mentality when being asked to go for help.

In softball, it is considered two independent rulings. Some consider it "coaching" a team if no call is made, thus tipping off one or the other of a problem.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying in this post. Maybe I should have been more clear. What I was trying to say was that they had attained the base (which is why during this whole discussion i have said "their entire body has passed the base") and were therefore "safe", but they aren't really safe until they go back and retouch first because they are at risk to be put out on appeal.

You know, I have never had a problem asking for help on a call. I know for a fact when there a runners on second or third and I am way across the infield there are plays that are difficult to see a pulled foot at first. I can think of one play that happened not too long ago. bases loaded 1 out, line drive to F4 who throws to first. From where I was I couldn't make a clear call if F3 was on the base w/ the ball before the runner was back. Called time and conferred..... I believe in making 1 call, and it being the right call. If you have to get together to make that call so be it.

[Julio Caliente]

Originally Posted by Al

"On a play at the plate, should the runner miss home plate and the fielder miss the tag on the runner, the umpire shall make no signal on the play. The runner must be tagged if he attempts to return to the plate; if he continues on his way to the bench, the defense may make an appeal."

Damn, made me go pull out my little book and look it up. I was wrong on the play at home. I am apologize to all.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Julio Caliente

Damn, made me go pull out my little book and look it up. I was wrong on the play at home. I am apologize to all.

Julio, you were only wrong if this was played by baseball rules and baseball mechanics. Remember, this was played by ASA rules, so ASA mechanics prevail.

Under ASA mechanics, no ball equals no call. That means, when the runner isn't played on, there should not be a safe call. If the runner is played on, ie, a missed tag, and touches the plate, there is an immediate and appropriate safe call. If the runner is played on, missed tag, missed plate, you pause momentarily to differentiate from a touched plate timing, so you are not falsely suggesting to the defense that the runner did touch the plate. If the defense fails to pursue the play, then you signal "safe", because the runner is, at that moment safe; and failing to make any call is "telling" the defense the runner missed the plate. The missed plate is an appeal; we do not "tell" the defense that they should make an appeal play.

NCAA handles it differently, in a manner only a college coach could appreciate. By RULE, not just mechanics, an umpire must signal safe and verbalize "no tag" if the runner misses home, even if the defense doesn't attempt a tag!! IMO, one of the worst rules ever written; when I do that, I feel like they should issue me a glove, too, since I am working for the defense.

[Julio Caliente]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

NCAA handles it differently, in a manner only a college coach could appreciate. By RULE, not just mechanics, an umpire must signal safe and verbalize "no tag" if the runner misses home, even if the defense doesn't attempt a tag!! IMO, one of the worst rules ever written; when I do that, I feel like they should issue me a glove, too, since I am working for the defense.

Thanks for the help. I think what you said above is a stupid rule and is why I do not agree with the "no call" concept. They are basically the same thing. If you make no call at all it is like walking over to the coach and say "hey, they missed the base. You should appeal".


Well, I guess in ASA what i did was somewhat correct because I did wait extra time to make sure that what I saw was what I saw (yes she missed the plate) and that she didn't turn around for the plate before I signaled safe.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

NCAA handles it differently, in a manner only a college coach could appreciate. By RULE, not just mechanics, an umpire must signal safe and verbalize "no tag" if the runner misses home, even if the defense doesn't attempt a tag!! IMO, one of the worst rules ever written; when I do that, I feel like they should issue me a glove, too, since I am working for the defense.

Just can't understand it. More or less, the umpire is saying, "Yeah, you're safe now, but you're gonna be screwed in a second or two!"