Stupid rule...
 

Fair warning - LL baseball...

In the consolation game in the LL world series, the Texas pitcher was within one out of pitching a no-hitter against the Caribbean team when he was removed by LL rule because he reached the 85 pitch count limit. The relief pitcher struck out the last batter to preserve a "team" no hitter.

Stupid to have such a rule without any room for exceptions to be made.

Though their heart is in the right place, I don't believe this is that great a rule. Like many other physical attributes of a player, there is no standard number you can place as a baseline. A player should at least be allowed to finish the inning. If they put as much emphasis on types of pitches thrown (yeah, I know it isn't possible) as they do on the count, it would be a higher level of protection for the player.

Unfortunately, I believe that rule is a coming attraction for softball. Rumor has it that it's only a year or two away.:(

It would make absolutely no sense to have this type of rule for softball. The mechanics of pitching are totally different in this sport than in the little ball sport. There is no real stress put on any part of the arm, if the player has been coached correctly, in softball. What would be the benefit, then, of such a rule?

Also...where are you hearing your "rumors" from?

I was looking on here to find the thread I read something about it - there was in interesting article posted about the stress that is actually put on a female's arm when she throws and that they are now thinking it's more stress than we used to believe. I have also spoken with a couple of DA's that just returned from Williamsport and they told me that they look for it to happen in softball. I don't like it either but there are other rules I don't like and have to live with them. I guess this is one more . . .

Well, considering it's roughly the reverse motion of a volleyball swing, it doesn't surprise me that this could become an issue. My right rotator cuff tendon is 50% severed from all the hitting I've done.

I believed this for years. Certainly there is less stress on the shoulder than in baseball pitching, but softball overuse injuries are still posible. My DD was an above-average HS and JO pitcher. Her mechanics were sound, and every pitching coach who saw her loved her wrist snap. At age 17 she was diagnosed with a stress fracture to the tip of her radius. She never pitched another inning. :( (Fortunately, she hit well enough to put herself through college by swinging a bat.) I really think that if I had restricted her pitching "just a bit" the results would have been different.

I don't object to the idea of the rule itself in 12U baseball. What I find stupid is a rule so rigid it does not allow a kid to pitch to one more batter when he has a no-hitter going in the LL world series! The rigidity is stupid. There should be a possiblity of exception in certain exceptional circumstances.

Yes, but you know how coaches can be - and they would certainly try to come up with different ways to bend the rule. You know the whole inch into a mile thing . . .

Sure it's a stupid rule - but look at the organization.
Supposedly, the organization is not about winning/losing/individual or team stats - it's about participation and learning the game. Looking at it from this standpoint, it's not that stupid a rule. If we want competition or something closer to real ball, there are far better organizations. If, however, you want participation as the driving force, LL is probably not a bad organization.

I can't find the thread that discussed the problems that have recently been discovered - or contrived or whatever you want to call it, but a simple google search for "softball pitching injuries" came up with these articles and others.

www.momentummedia.com/articles/cm/cm0907/pitch.htm

http://www.momentummedia.com/article...9/bbtulane.htm

http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/15/26/21.html

Look at anything long enough and eventually you will find something wrong or "dangerous" about it.

I don't think the issue with softball is the same as baseball.

In baseball, the issue is more about the motion used which is no where near as "natural" as an underhanded pitch. In softball, it is more of an issue of overuse.

Even the best made products suffer from wear and tear. Running and jogging is supposed to be healthy events, yet continue to run/jog without proper rest/recovery time and the ankles, knees and hips will eventually begin to deteriorate.

And I think that may be softball's sin. A coach gets a good pitcher and hangs not only his hat on her, but damn near an entire season. And that cannot be good for the pitcher's arm as often as these girls play and practice.

The article seems to support my original statement:



And:



Please note that I didn't say injuries to the arm were impossible, that would be absurd. What I was discussing was the lack of necessity for a pitch count rule to be put into softball based on the fact that injuries of the type which they are made to prevent are less likely in softball, with proper coaching and proper mechanics.

In May, one of the best young pitchers here in AZ and probably the country was hospitalized with what was diagnosed as Thoracic Outlet Syndrome.

From what I understand, the muscles in her upper arm had developed so much from all of her pitching, that blood flow to her arm was restricted. She ended up in the hospital for 12 days and at least one major surgery.

I agree - it makes little sense in softball for exactly the reason you mention.

I'll tell you what I'd like to see in the NCAA Softball College World Series, however: Something that forces a team to bring in a 2nd pitcher at some point in the tournament.

This would prevent a team from riding the coattails of a dominating pitcher when their team, as a whole, may not be as good as another. I think a 2nd pitcher should be tasked with "holding down the fort", to some extent, at some point in the tournament, even if only a brief appearance.

Pitching is disproportionately a critical element of the game in fastpitch softball. When balancing the importance of good hitting and good defense, pitching tips the scales to a huge degree. A dominating pitcher can make even an average team look great. And she can do it for every pitch, of every game, for the duration of the tournament.

Generally speaking, in fastpitch softball, if you don't have a pitcher - you don't have a chance. On the other hand, if a team is weak in several categories; as long as they have a dominating pitcher - they always have a chance. How good does your defense have to be if your pitcher is striking out 12-15 batters a game? How good does you offense have to be when your pitcher has an ERA of 0.73?

In short, I'd like to see some more pitching depth in the College World Series. I'm not sure how that can be done, however.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

Yes, I understand, but it is very sad that the kid was within one out of pitching a no-hitter in the LLWS and was removed from the game.

There should be SOME wiggle room for the LLWS.

Drop the pitch count to 80, but allow the pitcher to finish the inning.

Ignore the pitch count (coach's discretion) for a no-hitter.

Something.

Yeah. The NCAA should also require the football teams to play at least one series with the second string QB; the basketball teams to limit centers to 35 minutes; hockey teams to require the use of two goal tenders, etc. :rolleyes:

This is a bad thing because...?

That's the way FP has ALWAYS been and will ALWAYS (I hope) be. If you want T-ball, go to a local league and watch. It's exciting. If you have leagues where every kid bats every inning, you could have an inning with two quadruple plays. I know...been there, seen with own eyes.

If you want offense, go see some SP.

FP is a different animal. The game may well evolve into something different, perhaps during our lifetimes, perhaps later. FP now is much the way baseball was 120 years ago.

Dakota,

I agree with you that it stinks that this kid got pulled when he was pitching a no-hitter. But I think part of the problem with putting in an exception is that, at the local level, it would be abused and difficult to enforce. For example, I'm sure we've all had those games where there are a thousand errors (or at least that's what it seems like). Does the game where the defense is stinking it up but the pitcher hasn't technically given up a hit still count? Well, it would be hard to word it so that it didn't, but no one is really interested in preserving that "no-hitter." Not to mention, what happens when one score keeper scores something an error and the other scores it a hit. It's just a big mess.

LL says that this rule is to prevent overuse, and regardless or whether that is true or not, if that's what they're going by, then it only makes sense to strictly limit pitchers to a certain number of pitches.

It varies by players, but unfortunately, there are coaches that are more interested in another win than the health and safety of their pitchers. Furthermore, there are coaches, more so at the local level than the LLWS level, that simply don't know that much about it, and could unknowingly be hurting their pitcher.

Doesn't LL already have different rules in the tournament than in regular league play? (Participation rules, for example)? An adjustment to the pitch count rule could be made to only apply to the final 16 tournament, where presumably defenses are better and there is an official scorekeeper.

You mean, when a batter could call for a high or low pitch, and the pitcher had to deliver it to him, and when it took seven balls to issue a walk? Or, if you are talking about scoring, you mean when the Baltimore Orioles scored an average of 14 runs per game, which is far more than any other team in the 20th and 21st centuries? Or, are you talking about when the Chicago Colts(Cubs) scored 36 runs in one game? :D

Because it practically makes it an INDIVIDUAL sport that masquerades as a TEAM sport.

I realize what I suggested (force a 2nd pitcher's participation) will never happen.

The example you give of quarterbacks and goalies is invalid when compared to fastpitch softball.

Football and hockey teams often overcome the lack of a superstar as either their quarterback or goalie. One comes to mind instantly - the 2001 Super Bowl champions, the Baltimore Ravens, with Trent Dilfer at the helm. They won despite him, not because of him. They were so impressed with his abilities to "lead" them to a Super Bowl championship that they promptly traded before the commencement of the next season.

You'll see no such examples in fastpitch softball.

It's nearly impossible to win a fastpitch championship with a dominating defense. Good hitting will often cause you to come up short if your pitching is only "good", but not GREAT. Average pitching gets you nowhere even with tremendous defense and hitting.

But this is just the nature of fastpitch softball, for better or worse. True fans of the game, of which I am one, accept this as an unavoidable reality. Functionally, a team needs but one pitcher. The other pitcher is only "needed" to pitch inconsequential games, games in which the outcome is predetermined regardless who pitches because of the disparity in the teams, or should the ace pitcher get injured.

In most team sports you can win with a superior element of your game, whether it be defense or offense. Sometimes it's a combination of the two. But seldom is it a particular individual on whom the team relies, game after game after game.

As great as Peyton Manning was, he eventually won his team a Super Bowl. But he was dangerously close to being dubbed another Marino, a great player who could never win the "big one."

Fastpitch softball becomes very interesting when the opposing pitchers are BOTH superstars because this is the rare time when those other elements come into play. But sadly, the game is usually such a low-scoring affair (ala soccer), that the result often hinges on some quirky, or unfortunate event that does not really reveal that one team is better than another, rather, that one team is simply luckier than the other - at least for this game.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

"In short, I'd like to see some more pitching depth in the College World Series. I'm not sure how that can be done, however."

David,
The reason you won't ever see this happen is that the college coaches write the rules, and their job is to win. They're going to do what they can to win enough to advance as far as they can.

"But this is just the nature of fastpitch softball, for better or worse. True fans of the game, of which I am one, accept this as an unavoidable reality. Functionally, a team needs but one pitcher. The other pitcher is only "needed" to pitch inconsequential games, games in which the outcome is predetermined regardless who pitches because of the disparity in the teams, or should the ace pitcher get injured."

Pitching does dominate, you're right. And I can't think of anywhere I'd rather be - officiating wise, anway - than on the plate in a men's major game. Most of the big time men's major teams have 3+ pitchers. One may be the one who gets the ball in must-win games, but the others get plenty of work.
A close friend of mine got to regularly work the plate for the Eddie Feigner-Ty Stofflet games. He's much older than me - but it had to have been awesome with the slow guy throwing around 105.

Dang! 105mph???

I can't imagine what that must look like.

That's something I have very little experience with - men's fastpitch. You just don't see too many leagues like that. I know they exist - just none around here.

What distance are they pitching from?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

None of the above. Not even taking nine balls (which it really didn't...nor did it really take seven...and I can explain if you want) for a base on balls.

No...I mean when the pitchers were at 50 feet and no one was scoring hardly ANY runs.

And...the game in which the Colts scored all those runs was against the Louisville team which soon had the manager and five players expelled from baseball for inveterate gambling and throwing games. You'll find that a hall of famer then became their managers...and the Louisvillians were usurped by a team...and the rest is history.

If memory serves me right (and I could Google it, but that would be cheating since the rest of this has all come from memory), the Orioles scored all those runs when the distance was first moved to 60'6" (which was NOT a surveryor's mistake). Once the pitchers adjusted, it was all downhill.

Just as baseball exploded the year the pitchers moved back to 60 feet, we can expect something similar if NFHS goes to 43.

Want more offense in college? It will not happen anytime soon, but just move the pitchers back another three feet -- or seven feet to a full 50.

Better look quick, David.:D
Men pitch from 46 feet. Women pitch from 43 feet, and girls from 40 feet.
I've had one throwing 102 and his counterpart in the low-mid 90's. But I've never had two who were both that fast - and thankfully, at thoat level, they have outstanding control.
Let's see - Memphis. How close is that to St Louis? There's some pretty good ball there, or at least a couple of really solid teams. Men's fast pitch in general is dying - if not dead in most areas. And good men's fast pitch is even tougher to find.

As a late addition - these guys can hurt somebody when they throw change-ups.

Uhhhhhh...I didn't say that. Someone else did, and they should receive the proper attribution because (in my humble opinion) it was very valid.

It's valid if you put "NCAA" in front of all those, which is what you said. You are never going to get a participation rule into Div 1 varsity sports. If you want more offense, it'll have to be done another way.

Common Sense
 

Many of our rec leagues in the area limit a pitcher to 3 or 4 innings in 10U and 12U. This is done to encourage the development of multiple pitchers and grow the league and has nothing to do with limiting due to potential injury. This encourages the coaches to develop more than one pitcher as they have a difficult time winning with one.

The shame is we have the other side of the coin where the coaches come out and pitch to prevent walks in some weaker parks - in some respects you get what you expect.

The title of this thread is right on the money - stupid rule. I'd have to say the sanctity of the game is damaged when you take a kid out within one K of a perfect game. Yes, I've heard of similar issues with the rec leagues limiting innings.

Now common sense tells me that after pitching batting practice to the baseball team once or twice and the suffering that ensues versus pitching batting practice to a softball team fastpitch underhanded for an entire travel season without worries ought to tell us something even if it is an old man doing it.

You're right about that.

I wouldn't refer to it as a "participation rule" so much as a tournament "depth gauge."

Getting a hit off these 70mph pitchers throwing from 43feet away is like a soccer goalie trying to stop a penalty shot. One side has a completely lopsided advantage which, sadly, diminishes the spectator value of the sport. Everybody pretty much knows what the outcome is going to be; the batter probably won't be successful and neither will the goalie.

I'm a fan of the sport. I'm OK with the fact that it is pitcher-dominated. I've gotten used to it. Hell, my daughter is a pitcher. I just think sometimes it would be interesting to see if some other facet of the game could determine the outcome. It seldom does. Most games are just pitching duels.

I'd say it's about 10% defense, 20% hitting, and 70% pitching. So, a team's efforts are much better spent in simply recruiting an ace pitcher. That will go a long way to getting them where they want to be, even if they only have mediocre hitting and fielding.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN