ASA SP with stealing
 

Well, it's been a couple of years since they added stealing to ASA men's SP. I've only called one ASA state tourney since it was added, and they didn't allow stealing. None of the rec leagues where I call have added it, either, so I have zero experience with the rule.

Since Mike has opened up the channels of communication regarding rule changes, I figure now would be the appropriate time to bring up the subject (though I didn't want any debate to be in Mike's thread, as his was for suggestions for rule changes).

What are everyone's thoughts on stealing in SP? Has it worked well for ASA? Or are there revisions/clarifications in the rules/mechanics that should be made?

The floor is yours. :)

Over the past 2 weekends I worked the Indiana "D" state and the *Indiana "E" State*. The even with the 0-0 count the prospect of the runner stealing sped up the game simply by demanding that the catcher actually catch the ball and not retrieve it from the back stop. So, from my perspective the rule is a good one and I like it the way it stands.


*Note*: I know there is no "E" and we've been over this before. It's an Indiana thing.

Actually its not just an Indiana thing. I just got back from Nebraska where I had the pleasure of working the Mens SP 'E' and 'E1' state championship. And they even have a 'F' division. Its really a very fun tournament to work as most of the teams have never played in a big tournament and never on fields and facilities as nice as they have in Hastings, NE. The quality of the umpires there was also outstanding with two elite slow-pitch umpires heading the list.

As to the OP, we played with stealing and all in all it went really well. I love the game with stealing and now with the rules changes from a couple of years ago its easy to call and for players to understand. I hope they keep it if for no other reason then keeping catchers trying to catch the ball and not waiting for it to bounce off of me.

Jeff Merriman

We had one league last year use stealing that I know of, and I believe they're still using it this year (I haven't been assigned there this year to know - bkbjones: Costco, do they still use it?)

I liked it. Like gdc25 said, it forces F2 to keep his head in the game. That said, there were only maybe 2 steals per game... and those were where F2 let the ball go to the backstop. Seemed to be better quality ball than we typically see.

The mechanics they clarified with it this year make sense to me, but I haven't had the opportunity to use them to know first hand.

This rule change was one of the best for ASA softball the past 7-8 years. Remember, they had stealing at the upper levels a little longer than the rest.

I think it adds a tremendous amount of excitement to the game for the players, fans and umpires. You always have to be on your toes.

The teams are catching on to what they can do with this rule. More than just a few times, we had the old R1 trying to draw a throw to 2B to allow R1 to steal from 3B. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. Have had a few straight steals off the defense's laziness or just not paying attention including at least a half dozen I saw trying to steal home.

And as stated, and the initial reason why the rule was originally instituted at the Super level was to keep the catchers in the game instead of waiting for a ball to hit the backstop, pick it up and throw it back to the pitcher.

I dunno. I was supposed to do them on Sunday.:(

I wish we had more leagues that used it. Not only forces F2 to catch the ball, but think how much better off our shins and heads will be with someone back there who actually CAN catch the ball.

Only had a few games with stealing and those with teams who had not much more experience.

Think it is good for getting the catcher more in the game and it does, it seems, speed up the game.

Most awkward part is having to declare the ball "dead" if it does not pass the plate so the runner knows not to attempt a steal. It cries for a visual sign, maybe a fist pumP?:)

Or what would be wrong with allowing stealing, even on a pitched ball that does not cross the plate?

Ah....There is a visual signal.

Yeah, look at page 225.

Maybe if our leagues in the area would allow stealing in SP, I wouldn't have posted my ridiculous math post earlier.

Just what is that "non-verball dead ball signal" on page225?

Page 222 in defining dead ball signals leaves it up to the umpire to "come up with a good dead ball signal".

I gave you my idea.

What is yours?

And the second part of the question is why should stealing be prohibited just becasue the ball fell short off, or touched, the plate?

Well, it certainly isn't double-fist pumping. Signal a first down. I really don't care. If you have to ask...

And as for your latter question... Because that's what they want.

That was an answer?

What is your "Non-Verbal Dead Ball Signal" in a game involving stealing?

And if that is what "they want" do you ever ask why?

Just wondering.

Same as dead ball, but no verbal call. Isn't that obvious?

Only when I see a point to asking why. Why do you get 2 bases from point of release on an overthrow? Because that's what ASA wants. Do I need a reason? No. I call what they want me to call.

Well, you cited page 225 so:

It defines NO "non verbal dead ball call" but adds "followed by a verbal or strike call".

So your question "Isn't that obvious " begs an answer.

Do you have one?

And, for the last time, why should stealing be denied just because the ball did not cross the plate?

You can feel free to give us an opinion regardless of the thinkning of ASA.
You are an umpire I presume, not a clone.

Page 222 does not "define" dead ball signals. It does however does give a lot of information on dead ball situations. And when the book says "come up with a good dead ball signal" I think they mean come out of your set position and excute a nice crisp dead ball signal. And NOT permission to make up your own signal.

Page 264 gives you what that signal should look like. With pictures and everything.

As for the second part of you post. Prehaps the simple answer is the crazy bounces the ball can take before it reaches the plate or when it hits the plate or its edge. But that would make sense so I am most likely wrong.

Jeff Merriman

Is pitched ball live when it hits the dirt in front of home plate for the batter? In other words, can he "cricket" the ball down the left field line after the ball has bounced?

No, the ball is dead.

Okay. We need those kind of calls to simply say the ball did not reach home plate? Nothing simpler? Don't you think that is a little bit of overkil for signalling to a base runner that the ball is dead?

And if we are going to have stealing, why should the offense get a break for not being able to get a ball over the plate?

Just asking.

Simpler? I'm raising my hands in the air, seems fairly easy even for a slowpitch guy. Overkill?...No I don't think so. Not with some of these players take off on anything. And last but not least its the way we signal dead ball at all other times in the game.

Should the DEFENSE get a break for not putting the ball over the plate? Heck I guess having a ball called on the batter is a break.

Jeff Merriman

The OP asked for opinions on improvements on mechanics. I think I stated mine as to the need for a more subtle non verbal call to a runner on a dead ball negating an option to steal.

While I misidentified the DEFENSE regarding a ball short of the plate, my question still stands: Why is a called ball short of the plate different than a called ball over the plate as regards stealing?

Okay. In short.

No I don't think there is any need for any rule or mechanics change.

Jeff Merriman

Jeff,

you are correct. The present mechinac is so simple and easy to perform and comprehend, at least for some people, that there is no need for change.

And anyone knows that a ball which hits in front of or on the plate is not safely available to the catcher to continue play, so it is ruled dead.

This was the funniest thing you've ever said, Jim ... until I read further and realized you weren't making a pun.

Now it's the stupidest thing you've ever said, and that surpasses some pretty absurd things.

"Come up with a good dead ball signal" does not mean "invent a good dead ball signal". Good grief. It means STAND up and give a very visible Dead Ball Signal ... which all of us use, and most your players know what it looks like.

For all but one, Mike.

Can the batter hit a ball that has bounced in front of or on the plate?

Wow!! Answered the question, correctly, even, not the usual attempt to act like the question has no point. Still doesn't get it!!

The ball is dead; so, why again would you think the runners should be allowed to steal?

Sure seems simple to me, too.

Simple would certainly define ASA signals...Simple and juvenile.

And a ball hitting the plate is a safety problem for stealing?

I swear the answers here by the so-called experts get funnier by the day.

It seems your ESP was in fine form!:D

SP stealing and safety
 

Just guessing, because its been 15 years since I played or watched SP, but is the safety issue the catcher reaching for those balls that are landing short with concerns that the batter is also swinging?

Haven't seen a SP game for 15 years and you figured it out with no problem.

:eek:

I knew I could get him to answer the question correctly... :D :p

The question still remains.

The rules on a dead ball were changed to permit stealing.

Why limit the rule change to only balls that cross the plate?

Once the ball either hits the ground or reaches the plate a runner can steal.

Remember the OP asked for thoughts on stealing.

I'll make it real simple for you and the OP. Dead ball means everything stops. That's the purpose of the term "dead" in Dead ball...