FLEX batting
 

Need help on this one -- came up in our preseason meetings

Federation rules -- after the #9 batter completes her at bat, the FLEX comes up to bat and takes a pitch before detection.

Is the FLEX now in the game as an illegal sub on offense for the #1 hitter, thereby necessitating RE-ENTRY if the #1 hitter is put in to cure the problem?

Need more info.
Is the #1 hitter the DP?
Remember, the FLEX can only bat for the DP.

I had this happen on my DD's middle school team while I was scoring. The Flex saw her name in the #10 slot on the dugout lineup and didn't realize that she wasn't supposed to bat (I think once the coaches understand DP/Flex, that they out to spend at least 10 minutes explaining it to the players). Anyway, she was late getting out to the on-deck circle, so by the time I saw what she was doing and got the coach's attention in the 3B coaches box to tell her that her flex was batting, she was next to the plate and a pitch was on the way which was hit and the batter was out.

The other team's scorekeeper apparently didn't understand what had happened.

My understanding that the batter would be out as soon as detected after taking a pitch but before her turn at bat is resolved. What would happen if she hits fairly and gets on base I'm still muddy on. And/or any additional penalties on the batter or coach (ejection?)

Assuming the #1 spot batter is NOT the DP, this is an illegal substitute (NFHS 3-3-6g). Your FLEX player is removed from the game and restricted to the bench. She is out (in the situation you described). Your #1 batter has lost her turn at bat. #2 is due up. When your #1 batter re-enters she has usied up her re-entry rights, or you may properly sub for the #1 batter.

If the #1 batter is the DP, this is an unreported substitute, and a team warning will be issued, with the next offending player being restricted to the bench (NFHS 3-6-7 PENALTY).

She is out and the play is nullified, (but any outs made stand) if detected before the next pitch. No, other than what I said in the post above.

Clarification of above
 

To clarify my initial scenario -- the #1 hitter is not the DP -- that would be too easy

My main question is -- since we have an offensive sub for the #1 hitter, albeit an illegal one, does the #1 hitter have to burn her re-entry if she comes back in the game?

Seems most folks are saying yes

Yes.........

Tom, I disagree. NFHS 3-4-2.b, when discovered before the next pitch, play is nullified (all outs stand), illegal sub is out, illegal sub is restricted, B1 does not lose her turn at bat (illegal sub supercedes BOO, even though both occured). NFHS 3-4-2.c, when discovered after a pitch, play stands, but illegal sub is out if still on base, and illegal sub is restricted.

The restriction is occasionally overlooked because it is listed separately for all subsections of Article 2; but an illegal sub remains illegal whenever she is discovered, and must always be restricted and replaced with a legal sub.

Steve, I referred to my earlier post where I stated she was restricted.

Also, I disagree that both BOO and illegal sub occurred, since they are mutually exclusive in the situation of the FLEX batting for a non-DP. It is not considered a sub for the DP, but batting out of order. It is considered an illegal sub for the #1 batter, batting in the correct order.

Why not? See case plays 3.4.2 A & B.

How can she be BOO when she wasn't in the batting order to start?

It can't. Which is what he said. It's not. It's illegal sub. Again - which is what he said.

Good. Thank you. I didn't research it, and simply read the ruling. Rule book Penalty clearly states proper batter loses time at bat in 2a (when still at bat or after making an out and no pitch has been thrown; but ignores (and therefore I incorrectly assumed that is not the case) in 2b and 2c. It makes much more sense that the proper batter must be skipped in all cases.

As to disagreeing, I misread your post; I think you might, in retrospect see how it might be misconstrued. When you said no other penalties other than as in post above, I simply referred to your statement in the same post, but above this statement. In there, you simply called the player out and play nullified.

Finally, to all:

The language that BOO is superceded appears in the 2005 NFHS rulebook Penalty to 3-4-2b. At some point, the argument that an illegal sub other than FLEX batting in the nonexistent 10th position can be considered BOO; again, I was rushed, threw out my first answer from an older reference without full research. It also seemed to try to explain my reading that BOO is superceded.

My apologies; I did make many of you think further!!

To the original, singular question in the OP; in all cases of an illegal sub, the original player has left the game, and must reenter, or else another legal sub must be used.

I didn't word it the best, I know. Just got lazy.

Just remembered the reason for "supercedes" language.

A noted rules person argued at one time that we could consider the FLEX batting in an incorrect position (other than the DP's) as 1) an unreported sub (remember the language that the FLEX batting for the DP in not a substitution?? Therefore, did not need to be reported??) who then bats out of order. This would effectively eliminate the restriction (ejection in ASA). For several years, the language was added to make sure 3-4-2 was applied, not BOO.

Now, the rule 3-3-6g points to 3-4 for penalty (did not previously).

I know it is not, but this was the statement to which I was referring:

It is not considered a sub for the DP, but batting out of order.

I seem to be having problems communicating in this thread...

I meant, "It is NOT considered a sub for the DP who is batting out of order. It is instead considered an illegal sub for the #1 batter who is batting in the correct order."

Let's follow this thru to the absurb

After the #9 batter bats, the FLEX comes up and bats and completes her turn at bat as an illegal offensive sub for #1.

At that point, I've got #1 out of the game and she must re-enter.

Now, #1 sees they're starting at the top of the lineup and comes up to bat following the last name of the lineup in the dugout (#10) -- Do I now have #1 re-entering as a batter in the #2 slot following the FLEX (who is the illegal sub) in the #1 spot in the batting order?

Suppose they get all the way back thru the lineup down to the bottom -- do I now have the entire team re-entered as illegal subs because of the FLEX inserting themselves in the batting order?

Lot of restricted folks in that dugout, if that's the case

I understood you. But I see how that statement was misunderstood as well.

No ... you only have one illegal sub - the FLEX. After that, once B2 took a pitch, she legitimized the BOO on B1 and becomes the correct batter ... and the rest of the batters are all batting in order. B1 has used her reentry at this point.

Let's Summarize
 

We've been going back and forth. I'd like to summarize so I know how to rule on this if it should ever happen. It seems to me that the two broad categories we are discussing is as follows:

1. Flex bats in the 10th spot with the #1 spot being the DP.
2. Flex bats in the 10th spot with the DP being in some other spot other than #1.

With that in mind here are the scenarios:

1. Flex Bats in 10th spot with #1 spot being the DP. If discovered while at bat, can't we say she is an unreported substitute, assuming she is batting for the DP? Then if that's the case we simply put her in the game. The team has now gone down to 9 and we give a team warning.

2. Flex Bats in 10th spot with DP being #1 spot. Flex makes it safely on base. DP now comes up to bat. What do we have? BOO? What do we do with Flex? Is she still an unreported substitute?

3. Flex Bats in 10th spot with #1 spot NOT the DP. If discovered while at bat, what do we have? Illegal Sub? BOO?


4. Flex Bats in 10th spot with #1 spot not the DP. Flex makes it safely on base. Lead-off batter now comes up to bat. What do we have? BOO? What do we do with Flex? Is she still an unreported substitute?

A couple of key points / general principles:

1) Players who are not IN the batting order cannot bat out of order
2) When a player not in the batting order steps up to bat, she is entering the batting order FOR someone. There is no #10 spot (speaking NFHS fast pitch)
3) The rule book makes it very clear that the FLEX player entering the batting order for anyone other than the DP is an illegal player.
4) Considering all of the above, and especially #3, the FLEX player can never bat out of order.

Using these, proceed step by step in your situations.

Correct.

See #1 above. Is the player who started the game as DP in the batting order at this point? No. FLEX was an unreported substitute. Team warning. DP is not in the game. DP has also re-entered the game (3-3-3d). She must be entering FOR someone since she was no longer in the batting order. Hence, she is an illegal subsitute, is declared out, is restricted to the bench, and B1 missed her turn at bat. B2 due up. Double wammy.

Since this is specifically covered in the rules (3-3-6g) AND in my general principles, I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader.

See my response to #2 as a guide and go through it step by step. What is the FLEX player at this point? When was she discovered? What is the penalty for her? Has B1 entered the game officially? What is her status? What are the consequences of this?

Who is the Flex batting for?
 

If the DP is not the #1 spot and the flex bats in the 10th spot, she's an illegal sub. But who is she batting for? Do we always assume she is batting for the #1 spot? And if so, if the #1 batter also comes to bat, do we have another illegal sub since the #1 batter has been sub'd for and can't be in the game at the same time as her sub. So then do we get two outs?

This, like my response to your #2 situation above, may get into "official interpretation" territory where the NFHS may choose to limit the damage.... but I haven't been able to find anything. Which leaves us with the rules and case plays they do have.

Let's assume FLEX bats as "#10" in the order, so the offense is playing a batting order of 1, 2,...10, 1, 2, ... and no one, so far, has obected to this.

FLEX bats and reaches base. #1 enters the batter's box. By rule, FLEX was an illegal player and once that rule is enforced, #1 is out of the game and #1's time at bat is lost. So, #1 has no business being in the batter's box. By rule, #1 is now entering the game. Hence, #1 is also an illegal sub (illegal re-entry), and is out, and #2 has left the game and lost her time at bat.

Upon reflecting on this (and my answer to your #2, above), I'm not sure this literal interpretation is correctly applying the rules. After all, when #1 entered the batter's box, the illegal player rule had NOT been enforced against FLEX.

Anyone want to comment?