Incorrect instructions at plate meeting...
 

I'm BU. Partner is conducting the plate meeting, and for some reason is going into detail on the courtesy runner rule.

He explains it incorrectly, stating that once the player used as a courtesy runner enters the game, that the position she was running for (e.g. pitcher) can no longer have a courtesy runner. I keep quiet.

Comments?

Was this the same guy that did the punch-out on strike 2?

Yup. I hadn't worked with him before. Other than these two things, he called a very good game. Near as I could tell, the CR issue never came up.

I would have waited till the coaches cleared out and told him privately that he misspoke and that he could correct it if the situation comes up in the course of the game.

I might have said: "You mean she can not have that player as CR anymore"

A couple of weeks ago, in the plate meeting before the state 12u Babe Ruth final (I was BU), the PU refreshed the coaches and captains on several ASA rules, mainly regarding INT and OBS. Not a usual topic for a plate meeting, but the main problem was, these were in areas where BR is significantly different from ASA. I could see reminding everyone of BR rules, since most teams hadn't played under that code, but a specific pre-game reminder that was wrong seemed to be asking for trouble.

But I kept my mouth shut, figuring that the chances were that the game would be a blowout and that nothing would come up. Luckily, it was, and nothing did.

Last year, in a Pennsylvania showcase with teams from Alaska, Texas, Colorado, Georgia, New England, etc., the PU, after going over the field ground rules, reminded the coaches and captains that it's "Two from the field, one from the mound." Everybody (except me) nodded in agreement.

Why do umpires believe it is their responsibility to "remind" teams of what they are already supposed to know? Same thing with pre-game warnings. "I don't what to hear this" or "I don't want to see that" should never be part of a pre-game meeting.

A meeting should be introductions, check and double check and administer the exchange of line-up cards, address any special rules for THAT particular field, answer any questions as would pertain to those ground rules and finally, conduct the coin toss, if applicable.

This meeting is NOT a rules clinic, NOT a platform to warn of pet peeves, NOT a situation where an umpire threatens teams if they do something the umpire doesn't like, etc.

I had a PU tell the teams what the awards for out-of-play would be. Problem was his awards were wrong. Because recently I had had a BAD game with a partner where he accused me of stealling his call, I did't say anything. The real problem was it came into play. Lesson learned. I will now gently offer the proper awards.

Bugg

Thanks for the comments.

I agree the issue should never have been brought up in the first place at a plate meeting. He had a fairly lengthy plate speech, but this was the only error in it; he just said more than needed to be said about several other things, too. (JMO)

I chose to keep quiet since the "harm" would be minor and even unlikely to come up, whereas a disagreement between umpires at the plate meeting would damage our crediblity as a team.

And, as I said, he called a very good game.

The last two weeks, I have had the opportunity to work with umpires from different areas of the country that I would not normally work with. I had a situation where my partner explained an NCAA rule for catches against and over the fence that differs from the ASA rules we were playing under.

After the plate meeting, I told him that he explained the NCAA rule..after thinking for a few seconds, he agreed. As this was a B level game, it did not come into play at all during the game.

NCAA rule for catches against and over the fence that differs from the ASA rules

I do both NCAA and ASA. What is it?

Dakota did your partner also give the defenition of a force play.:D Just kidding but unless your doing a very low level of ball there's no reason for explaning the C/R rule unless asked by a coach or player ,just my two cents.
I give them the basics
1)No Jewelry
2)Good sportsmanship
3)Ground rules for that field.

NCAA rules - 1-22:

A catch shall not be credited when:
f. The fielder is standing on the fence as it is lying on the ground when she
contacts the ball.
(copied from the NCAA rulebook online)

The ASA rule allows the fielder to be standing on a fence that is lying on the ground and make a legal catch of a fly ball for an out.

I am paraphrasing the ASA rule as I do not have the book handy right now. Perhaps someone can post the ASA rule reference.

The ASA interp comes from RS 20.

Thanks. In fact, one NCAA field I worked on did have a temporary fence, and the wind kept blowing sections of it over. (And there were several homers in that doubleheader, too.) Glad I didn't have a fielder standing on the flattened fence, or I would have erroneously called it an out as per ASA. I better review my NCAA book.

And how would your credibility as a team look if it did come up and your partner wasn't going to allow the runner? Would you then go and have a talk to him? What are you going to tell the coach?

"Well, coach, I knew that he explained the rule wrong before but I didn't want to say anything."

That will really help your credibilty. Or how about the next day when this coach comes out to argue that the other team can't use a CR because the umpires yesterday told us that that was the rule. Now how is your credibilty with that coach or with the other umpiring crew who has to deal with the problem you caused.

If your partner is going to be explaining rules at a plate meeting then you better be sure that he is giving the correct information. If you don't want to do it at the meeting then you need to pull him aside, get things straight before the game starts and make sure both coaches know what the correct rule should be.

Of course the real simple solution to all of this is don't conduct a rules clinic during your pre-game.

First of all, I was interested in feedback on whether keeping silent was what I SHOULD have done; the followup was only to explain why I didn't speak up. Thanks for the comments.

As to stepping in as BU on a lineup card discussion between the PU and coach, I don't think so. Obviously, if it came up in the game, the rule as he explained it would have been enforced, unless the coach chose to protest. Since neither expressed any disagreement at the plate meeting, that was highly unlikely.

I agree the entire mini-rules clinic should not have been conducted at the plate meeting. However, note that if it hadn't been discussed, then he still would have enforced the CR rule during the game as he apparently understood it. So a "proper" plate meeting would have had exactly the same result as me keeping silent on the issue.

BTW, Tom, did you discuss the incorrect rule interpretation with the PU after the game? Did the coaches leave the field with an incorrect idea of how the CR rule should apply?

Just wondering what happened during the followup.

Thanks, Tom....I thought it was you that had the ASA rules from the CD that you could easily cut and paste.

I have a few pictures from the tournament in Park City...are you still adding stuff to the eteamz umpire site or has it become too much of a hassle since the "upgrades"?????:rolleyes:

No, I intended to, but forgot about it until I was driving home.Unfortunately, probably yes.

Yeah, the CD rule book is really nice. Unfortunately, the pdf version of the case book is still protected (Adobe reader will not copy selected text).

Go ahead and email them to me. I do occasionally log in over there.

The rules board is so quiet you can almost hear the crickets and see the dust rise from the web page when to go to the site. I wonder what the owners of the site think about that.

So you would knowingly let an incorrect rules interp. stand because the coaches didn't protest it or it wouldn't "look good"?

I'm sorry but I think that that makes you look far worse as a crew than getting together and making sure you both understand rule.

Now you have two coaches who think that this is the rule. Next game when the rule is applied correctly and they protest and get shot down how is your association going to look? You have some umpires making one ruling and other umpires making a completely different ruling.

I agree with you on not stepping in on his plate conversation, and I wouldn't have either, but as soon as the meeting was over, I would have gotten with him and made sure that we had the rule correct and that the coaches had it correct also. That's just my opinion.

Your adding words that I did not say.

I would not correct him at the plate since, worst case, he strongly believes what he just said and does not accept my correction. Nothing good can come from this.

I would not intervene during the game since - think about it - where am I when this CR discussion with the coach is going on? I'm in position somewhere 60+ feet away. I have no idea what is being discussed, and even if I suspect it MAY be about a CR, I'm not sprinting across the field with a "wait a minute... let me check that card..." THAT ain't happening!

I agree I probably should have mentioned it to him during the top of the 1st warmup pitches.

:eek: I was called in to be the BU on a 14U ASA FP game and the PU misapplied the CR rule. I found out about it after it happened and I tried to discuss it with him and he insisted he was correct and would not talk about it.

Both him and the UIC were incorrect so I went home after the games and double checked the CR rule to make sure I ws correct so that the next time I work with them I 'll have it available and will have it printed and in my pocket.

RANT ON :mad:

Is it just me, or am I expecting too much by expecting every umpire to understand the CR rule and the Flex/DP?

By every I don't literally mean every, but for pity's sake if we have folks working in championship play, those rules should be as second nature to us as the infield fly rule. They are NOT that difficult, and, yes, we have umpires up here who don't get one, or both, messed up.

I agree with a previous poster: the plate meeting is not the place for a rules clinic. A plate meeting lasting much over a minute is too long. Hi, I'm John, hi hi hi hi hi while shaking hands, coach, your lineup please...any changes? good. Coach, you're lineup please...any changes...quickly cover any quirky ground rules. Hustle on and off the field. Keep a foot in the batter's box on plain vanilla balls and strikes. Have fun. Have a great game everyone.

Everybody knows the freaking run rules and time limits. If you have to tell them you are in charge, you're not doing your job as an umpire. Why even waste time telling coaches that all changes come through you? If they don't know that, they deserve the consequences of unannounced/illegal subs.

RANT OFF:D

Why do you want to know all the positions on the line-up?
 

Turned in batting lineup today, I had already noted Pitcher, Catcher, Flex, and DP. PU wanted me to write in rest of of positions. I complied, but why did he ask me to?

With the DP listed in the line-up, any of the 10 players listed can play any of the 9 defensive positions. I might turn in a lineup with batter in the two hole listed as playing SS and decide to sit her on the bench and have DP play in her place the top of the first inning.

Even when I am not using the DP, I still don't understand why you want me to write down defensive positions, other than the pitcher and the catcher.

Tom,

You are the man in your area, just as all of the rest of you vets are in your area. We see you doing the championships, the high school playoffs, and even the NCAA games. Being a guru can be a burden.

If I'm at a plate conference with you and your partner and he explains something wrong and you don't say anything, then I assume I am wrong and go tell my co-coaches we misunderstood the rule. "The BLUES just told me at the plate conference we have been incorrectly using the CR."

Later, when I follow the incorrect CR rules, and the umps call me on it, I'm going to say, "but Tom said........"

In your sitch, I will leave it to you to decide if you should correct the other ump at the conference, but you should definitely get it corrected in his mind and the coaches mind at your earliest opportunity.

All the more reason why rules shouldn't be discussed at the pre-game. The purpose of this meeting is not for rules discussion of any kind. If you go to page 209 in the ASA Umpire's Manual, it outlines what should be covered in the pre-game meeting.

I agree with 90% of what you said.

But in my area, I HAVE to remind people of the run rules and/or time limits. Everyone around here has made up their own rules, but everyone plays games in other towns. 5-run rule here, 6-run rule 1 1/2 miles north of here, no run rule in the last inning over there... 75 minutes here, 70 there, no limit over that-a-way... no new inning if a team is up by the run rule with less than X minutes to go here, never heard of that over there.

THOSE are the rules I mention in this "league" (term applied loosely) just for clarity's sake. None other.

Considering that you can legally put the other 7 all in left field, or all between 1st and 2nd base, or dang near anywhere, this was a pretty asinine request from your umpire.

Mike, I agree with you, EXCEPT....

Every set of rules that I deal with, ASA, NFHS and NCAA, states that a lineup, to be legal, must include first names, last names, uniform numbers, and defensive positions. Other than NCAA, which considers player statistics a matter of national importance, the others say so just to say so. In reality, the only positions we must have identified are DP, F1 and F2 (F1 and F2 only when courtesy runners may be used). Even the FLEX shouldn't HAVE to be identified; by rule, it must be person listed in the 10th position.

I am consistently amazed at the umpires who insist on defensive positions, but not complete (first and last) names.

If he is wrong, then you need to have a consult with him and correct. If that means bringing the mgrs back out, then do it.