Can you do this?

tmielke · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 16, 2007, 12:36pm

As a relatively inexperienced FED umpire and 12U travel coach, I wasn't sure if I could do the following.

Situation: ASA rules, my team is the visitors, six inning game, no subs left, bottom of 5th inning, we are up 7-5

One of my outfielders did a very poor slide into second and deeply skinned up her knee. We got her sliding pad over the scrape and finished the inning. Once she sat down in the dugout it was clear that she was not going to continue in the game.

I looked at the bench, realizing no subs. I sent one of the starters out to center field and did not report the sub. I knew if we had to bat in the bottom of the 6th, I would be taking an out in the injured players spot in the line-up.

Nobody said anything, we retired the other team in the top of the sixth, game was over.

Any rule against what I did? Penalty?

CecilOne · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 16, 2007, 12:47pm

If you had no subs, then why "I ... did not report the sub"

wrt "I sent one of the starters out to center field", where was the starter before? That is, was she a DP or ... ? If DP, where was FLEX?

Dakota · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 16, 2007, 12:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmielke

Any rule against what I did? Penalty?

Yes. It was an illegal sub. Any sub (even on defense) must be in the lineup somewhere, and a starter and her sub cannot be in the game at the same time. You have a fair shot at getting away with this on defense, especially in the outfield, but you do run a risk if a sharp-eyed scorekeeper notices.

If your illegal sub had been involved in a play, and the opposition protested before the next pitch, your illegal sub would have been disqualified and the offense would have had the option of letting the play stand, or a do-over.

DaveASA/FED · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 16, 2007, 12:54pm

I think what you are asking is an unreported substitution and/or illegal substitution. If as cecil says there was a dp involved then you could have done this. IF the DP went into the game on defense for the injured player then you would have been fine (if injured player was flex then they left the game, if not then noone did anything) but from your description they would NOT have been the flex due to your comment of taking an out in the batting order.

So if you put a player that had been in the game in another batting position into the game for a player that was injured the answer was NO that is NOT legal! Please give a few more details and we can give you an exact answer.

tmielke · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 16, 2007, 01:12pm

No DP or Flex. All nine in the field were batting. The girl that went in the game for the injured player was a starter as was the injured player, so no the sub would not have been in the same spot in the line up as she was originally, thus the out and the reason I did not report her.

MNBlue · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 16, 2007, 01:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmielke

No DP or Flex. All nine in the field were batting. The girl that went in the game for the injured player was a starter as was the injured player, so no the sub would not have been in the same spot in the line up as she was originally, thus the out and the reason I did not report her.

I would equate what you did to the way my wife drives. Her philosophy is, "If I don't get caught, I wasn't speeding."

What you did was illegal, but you didn't get caught, so you didn't have to pay the penalty.

CecilOne · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 16, 2007, 05:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CecilOne

wrt "I sent one of the starters out to center field", where was the starter before? That is, was she a DP or ... ? If DP, where was FLEX?

OK, I missed "no subs left" in the OP, responded to "realizing no subs"; whne apparently you meant you re-entered a replaced starter illegally.

CecilOne · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 16, 2007, 05:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmielke

No DP or Flex. All nine in the field were batting. The girl that went in the game for the injured player was a starter as was the injured player, so no the sub would not have been in the same spot in the line up as she was originally, thus the out and the reason I did not report her.

Are you saying you deliberately cheated, like the mentioned and lots of other drivers?

UmpLarryJohnson · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 16, 2007, 07:47pm

hehe, another RAT confesses his crime and then CLAIMS to be a umpire. you may play AT umpiring but YOU are NO umpire...mr RAT.

NCASAUmp · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 16, 2007, 08:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by UmpLarryJohnson

hehe, another RAT confesses his crime and then CLAIMS to be a umpire. you may play AT umpiring but YOU are NO umpire...mr RAT.

While understanding substitution rules is a basic part of umpiring, I'll give tmielke the credit that he at least ASKED whether what he did was wrong. He admits he's a "relatively inexperienced umpire," and we've all been there. He made a basic substitution mistake. On the other hand, I know a lot of umpires who fail at basics, yet refuse to ask questions. They, in turn, do the rest of us no favor.

tmielke, check out ASA rule 4, section 6. That will cover just about everything you need with regards to substitutions. If you have any questions, I'm sure we'll be happy to clarify.

wadeintothem · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 16, 2007, 09:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by UmpLarryJohnson

hehe, another RAT confesses his crime and then CLAIMS to be a umpire. you may play AT umpiring but YOU are NO umpire...mr RAT.

While the term rat is pretty prevalent among the MLB umpire groupie wannabies who promulgate the BB Board and whose claim to fame is umpiring HS Ball (the sole requirement of such is to pay your assoc dues, buy a shirt and run around with a ball bag) and ejecting a couple of meat heads...

You wont see the term on this board.

azbigdawg · #12 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 16, 2007, 11:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

While the term rat is pretty prevalent among the MLB umpire groupie wannabies who promulgate the BB Board and whose claim to fame is umpiring HS Ball (the sole requirement of such is to pay your assoc dues, buy a shirt and run around with a ball bag) and ejecting a couple of meat heads...

You wont see the term on this board.

I want to second that..if the egomaniacs on the BB board want to use the term, fine....

If what the coach did was intentional, maybe some ethics should be rethought...if it wasnt....definitely a rules class.

either way.... lets not get into calling coaches names....

bkbjones · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 17, 2007, 12:57am

Question over here in the peanut gallery!

Was this ASA championship play, or was it "just" a tournament? We have rules to cover this sort of thing in our non-championship play tournaments, and this would have been legal under our usual tournament rules.

As for the Bruce Froemming wannabe, keep your rat a$$ over on the baseball board. I had to endure a couple of egomaniac wannabes the other day and asked them why in the heell they weren't calling a balk on a kid who was committing a balk on every pitch.

Their answer, I would hope half jokingly: "It's too hot to call a balk."

This was only the State Sandy Koufax Championships.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmielke

As a relatively inexperienced FED umpire and 12U travel coach, I wasn't sure if I could do the following.

Situation: ASA rules, my team is the visitors, six inning game, no subs left, bottom of 5th inning, we are up 7-5

One of my outfielders did a very poor slide into second and deeply skinned up her knee. We got her sliding pad over the scrape and finished the inning. Once she sat down in the dugout it was clear that she was not going to continue in the game.

I looked at the bench, realizing no subs. I sent one of the starters out to center field and did not report the sub. I knew if we had to bat in the bottom of the 6th, I would be taking an out in the injured players spot in the line-up.

Nobody said anything, we retired the other team in the top of the sixth, game was over.

Any rule against what I did? Penalty?

tmielke · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 17, 2007, 12:38pm

Wow, I didn't think that I was a RAT. Oh well.

Yes, I did what I did intentionally. I knew that we would have to take an out in that position in the order if we did have to bat. What I was not sure about was if there was a penalty for the illegal sub on the field. I did not have much time to make my decision and did not want to ask as I felt I might not like the answer, so I decided to send the player out there and deal with the consequences when and if they came up. The illegal sub was never involved in a play. The opposing team never said anything/noticed.

As for the RAT and other implications. When I am coaching I care about who wins the games. When I am umpiring I don't. I make my decisions, whether coaching or umpiring based on my knowledge of the rules and my ability to apply them quickly. As both a coach and umpire I am relatively inexperienced.

This was not championship play. It was the first game of an invitational.

With all that said, I did look up Section 4.6 in the ASA rulebook.

When looking at a rule, and you need to make a decision for your team, if you understand and are willing to accept the consequences is it OK to violate a rule?

In the situation of an unreported defensive sub:

Scenario 1
If the opposing team notifies the umpire before a pitch, the unreported sub must leave the game. No big deal

Scenario 2
If the opposing team notifies the umpire after a pitch, the unreported sub is disqualified from the game. Most likely no big deal if I understood the consequences of getting caught.

Scenario 3
If the unreported sub makes a play and the opposing team notifies the umpire prior to the next pitch, the unreported sub is disqualified and the offensive team can accept the results of the play or get a "do over". No downside here either. If the offensive team wants a "do over" and the unreported sub was involved in the play, this play would most likely have had a negative outcome had the unreported sub not been in the game. This could actually seen as a positive result for my team.

Scenario 4
If the unreported sub makes a play and the opposing team notifies the umpire after the next pitch, the unreported sub is disqualified and the play stands. Still no downside, play stands and I am back to 8 on defense.

In my situation, the only downside would be if the sub for the starter I put back in illegally was injured, it could be a forfeit. Likely not though. If the girl wasn't hurt bad enough to leave the dugout, she could at least go stand in fair territory against the outfield fence.

All the rest of the consequences really don't penalize the defensive team. Look at it this way. Umpire - "Coach that player has to leave the field". Me "ok". Now I have 8 defensive players which is what I would have had anyways.

If the unreported sub isn't noticed and makes a play, then is noticed. It is at worse for me do over after the player is disqualified. Now the rest of my defense has an opportunity to get an out that may not have happened the first time through with only 8 players on the field.

Wearing my coaching hat, depending on the situation, I might try it again.

Wearing my umpire had, at least I have a much better understanding of the substitution rules.

There was a question somewhere in this post. Shoot away!

NCASAUmp · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 17, 2007, 12:58pm

After that explanation, I can't say I condone your decision to wilfully violate the rules, especially since you're an umpire. Take the following as an example...

In one of the leagues where I call ball, one of the umpires (I'll call her "Julie") in our crew plays for one of the co-ed teams. Turns out one of her teammates is known for bringing doctored bats (they look like Freak 98s) to the game (see this post - same guy). "Julie" has heard these reports as well, and decided to see for herself if the bat was really doctored. She takes her own Freak 98 and compares his with hers. Sure enough, inconsistencies are found.

At this point, Julie had a decision to make. It is known throughout the area that she calls for our group, and she has a reputation to uphold. On the other hand, she wanted to play, as she loves the game.

In the end, Julie told her team captain, "either the bats go, or I go," and she stuck to her guns.

While I can't tell you what to do, tmielke, it would be wise to think about what it means to do what you did: wilfully violate a rule for the sake of winning. It would also be wise to think about the fact that this is a 12U team, and doing what you did accomplished 4 things:

1 - The kids now believe you must win at all costs, even if it means violating rules, or
2 - Your decision was the correct one, and the kids now think this is the rule, and
3 - If the illegal sub got injured, you're now opened up to the possibility that a slick enough lawyer could argue that as an umpire, you should've known better, and you're responsible for her injuries.
4 - You've possibly now gained an ill reputation among other umpires in the area, some of which you may or may not call with. However, you'll probably face them again, and you've lost credibility with them.

Just food for thought, and that's all I'll say, coach.