New position for BU
 

Okay I'm not making this up. ASA fast pitch, runner on third, my partner is between the 2nd baseman and 2nd base. He claims it allows him a better view of the play at first, but that the plate umpire then has the throw back at 3rd. I tell him to get over to the correct position. He just shrugs and stays put. Looking of suggestions on what (if anything) you all would have done.

Bugg

1) Cover 3rd as best you can.
2) Find another partner.

BTW, the view at 1st is better from B1 than B2.

What Cecil said....

FWIW, I have heard of a variation of this coming over from baseball.

Some two-umpire BB mechanics are teaching that with a runner on third only, the BU should start in the B position behind F4. The reasoning is that the BU is in a better position for the "most likely" play at first if the ball is put in play, but can still have an angle for a pickoff attempt at third. In any case, the BU still has the P/O at third as the PU will likely be looking straight up the back of a runner returning to third.

How difficult is it to see a force play at first from C? Read the play, move in, make the call. Isn't the PU observing if the BU needs help on a pulled foot/swipe tag?

I've always thought that, if you want to WORK, working the bases correctly can be a lot of work. For those blues that aren't interested in working on the bases, I don't think getting closer is going to improve their judgement.

I don't follow the logic for the argument.

While out of position in ASA, that is our recommended FED (NFHS) position with a runner on 3rd. IMO it does give you a good view of throw back to 3B and a much better position for calls at 1B.

That must be for baseball, since my NFHS Umpires Manual says differently.

page 58
Runner on Third Base Only - Fast Pitch

Field Umpire:

1. Take a position two or three steps behind and to the shortstop's right. Be cautious so as not to interfere with the outfielders view of the batter or a play by the infielders.
2. If a ball is hit to the infield wait until the fielder commits herself, then move quickly toward that base. Don't take your eyes off the ball.
3. Call all plays made on the first throw of the ball unless it is to home plate. Take the batter-runner into third base and see that all bases are touched.
4. Refer to Field Umpire Section

Maybe your partner does a lot of slow pitch. Everything he said was correct...if it was ASA slow pitch.

I hadn't heard of high school going to that mechanic....

In all fast pitch that I know of, the base ump should be somewhere in the C slot with runners on 2nd or 3rd.

To answer your question. I would get through the game as best as I could, then tell your partner when you are in private that you will A) never work with him again. B) you will be reporting the sitution to your local UIC.

Only if F4 was playing extremely deep. Otherwise, the BU in SP with a runner on 3B only should be off F4's left shoulder.

Check your March 2007 Rules Clarifications on this one, Mike. Pg. 251 Situation 9 diagram, and Pg 252 #8 was changed...

You are correct, but it makes no sense.

In this SP scenario, the BU is responsible ONLY for the BR at 1B. The PU is responsible for any play or tag up at 3B, so there is no need to put F4 between the BU and his point of responsiblity.

Not in NFHS FP softball. You should be in the standard ASA C position.

Using the standard Fed 'C' position and working between pitches, you'll have your 90-degree angle on that pickoff at 3B from 10 feet or so. By reading the play, going to 1B and hustling, you should be near the circle for the call at 1B. Your recommended Fed positioning appears to be lazy.

only with 2 out!!!
 

Here in the Neth.'s we are using the method as writen in opening post, BUT only with two out. With two down a pick off on 3th base isn't common and most plays will go on 1st base. It's the way we're supposed to work...

It's not my recommended position, it's our UIC's.
It is NFHS Fastpitch
Here is why I like it: Just My Opinion
If you are in the C psoition and the SS is playing deep, near the outfield grass, your angle to 3B is NOT 90 degrees but it is 90 degrees if you are positioned just off of 2B. In addition, in the C psoition, with a deep SS, you could be more than 100 feet from 1B. If the ball is hit to the left side of the feild there's not much chance of getting inside and therefore you are making a call from a long distance. Positioned near 2B you are less than 60 feet from either 3B or 1B.
There is a difference between being smart and lazy.
IMO it's a good idea.

It is not the recommended mechanic for NFHS Fastpitch. (See previous replies)


Once the catcher catches the pitch, or more specifically, when the batter doesn't hit the pitch, I'm moving to get into position to make the next probable call, the pick at third. Umpiring isn't about standing around and waiting for a play to happen, it's OK to move to a new position once the situation has changed.

Ive never been a fan of the "C" position in FP because of the look( or lack thereof) you get at plays at first..... but it can be sold fairly easily. I LIKE the "b" position with a runner at third...but I DONT like what the OP said about giving the play at 3rd back to the plate umpire...he has NO angle on that, it should be kept by the base umpire.

ANd I wouldnt use this position without pregaming it with my partner.....and if he/she objected....I wouldnt use it......

Here in NYS girls FP this is the mechanic that is used. The one problem I have is the 3rd baseman can shield your view when looking head on from this position.

Big,
What Mark speaks of here is what I'm calling "working between pitches".
With runners on 1B & 3B, I'm going to be 15-20 feet off of the 3B line and about 8 feet behind the 2B to 3B path. Sometimes, this will put me about even with F6 - several feet away. But I'm still behind the infielders - draw a line from F5 to F6 & I'm behind that. By working between pitches, I am positioning myself for the pick-off at 3B AND/OR the steal at 2B - I have a 90 degree angle on both. With a runner at 3B, you are not at all likely to see a pick-off at 1B. With an infield ground ball, chances are very good that I will get near the circle for the play at 1B. Mark's right - read, react, and hustle - after being prepared.

With a runner on first only, and the BU in 'B' (hopefully), are you giving the PU the pick at first? Pretty much the same thing. Here, we are expecting our BU to get in position to make the call.

I'm not opposed to trying something new, if it makes sense. I just don't think this positioning makes sense. What do Jim Craig or Ed Crane think of this? They're both New York state folks.

Here's as possible difference.

In my mind, (leave that alone, please :D ), a runner on 3B is most likely going to be in foul territory. Any quick return would most likely be in foul territory. If it is a close call on the outside of 3B, there is no way the BU is going to get even a good guess on the play, and the PU is very likely to be blocked by the runner's body.

An umpire in the C and moving after the pitch has a much better shot of getting some type of look. Even if still blocked, the perception is that the umpire is there for a call. This isn't available from working near 2B.

Secondly, where is a missed call most likely to hurt the defense, at 1B or 3B? Of course, none of us want to not see a play clearly, but it happens and there is no fool-proof set of mechanics to avoid it.

That was what I have been thinking throughout reading this thread... What is the priority, here? It may very well be that a play at 1B will happen more often than a pickoff attempt at 3B, but which is more important to get right?

Someone mentioned using B with 2 outs... that I can understand, since the play at 1st will prevent / allow a run to score.

But otherwise, it seems to me the priority should remain the runner at 3B.

Just for the record, I can assure that IS NOT standard baseball positioning.

With runners on 1B & 3B and less than two outs, I'm going to assume R2 will go to 2nd and there might be a play; although the fake play to a pick at 3rd is more likely.
I try to get an angle for the pick at 3rd because it can happen quicker.
With IF up, right behind F6 is usually good because I only need a step or two in, even if she covers. With IF back, a little left of F6 and back a few steps allows the same cover. If to the right of F6, I'm more likely to have a bad angle because of F6 covering.
Obviously, any of these require movement after the pitch to get where I would be if there was no possible batted ball.
Either way, seeing a play at 2nd is just a turn following the ball and a play at 1st is the usual hustle from an variation of C.

I feel like I'm being more wordy than clear, but the best I could do right now.

Am I the only one that just saw a HUGE door open? :D

I wasn't sure if he tee'd it up, opened the door, or told the skeet handler "pull". It may have been all three!!:D :D :D

Yup, he did. And he didn't use the disclaimer that you used back there with "In my mind."

Spencer
 

Hey Mr Sander
I am in the Czech Rep for the European Girls Championships that you should of been at, and because you were not here Gilbert only had 9 umpires for 120 spots, why did you not send your wife on Holiday and you come here :)
Clemence says hello, he did a great job for his 1st ESF Tournament. Hope to see you soon. Totziens

Hi Spencer,

It's Mr Bootsman, Sander for friends. I hope you'll continue with calling me "Sander"... It's not that I didn't want to be in the Czech Rep.; my boss couldn't miss me for four weeks. Tomorrow I'm leaving for France, with wife and son.

How did you do in Pilzen? You're having about 12-13 games this week? I saw a great pic of Gilbert, while he was at the EC-FPman in Belgium.

Was Clemence the only fresh (from my class) one? I thought that also two Greek-rookies would go and maybe a lost dutch (Arjan or Bob)...

Hope to see you soon...

Yeah Pappa George and Bob are also here but you e\want to call Bob a Fresh Man well with his knowledge I suppose he is but with his experience I am not to sure about the term Freash, but any how Pappa Gearge is a great guy and a very good umpire as I am sure you are too, Pappa George just showed me a pic from Chocen
Catch You Later as I am now enjoying my Jack Daniels