LL vs ASA

bigsig · #1 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 03, 2007, 09:14am

I need your help. I’ve been assigned a few Williamsport tournament games. I have one page sheets which describe the differences between ASA rules and PONY, PAL, etc. but cant’ find one for Williamsport. Do any of you have one or know were I can find one?
I’ve been told that they have a special rule for walks. Not the LBR. If a batter walks and rounds 1B she must continue on to 2B or is called out. She can not stop and return to 1B. Anyone familiar with this?
Thanks!

Steve M · #2 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 03, 2007, 10:48am

Big,
Where are you - near Williamsport?

Az.Ump · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 03, 2007, 09:30pm

bigsig,

Good luck. This has been discussed here several times. The rule differences would take a small book not just a few pages. L.L. Is OBR based. It is essentially L.L. Baseball played with different pitching rules and leaving early penalties. Leaving early is even different for individual age groups. Obstruction, interference, substitution and safety have major differences. You will need to get a L.L. rule book. In the rear they have the rule differences between regular season and the International tournament. No Flex/Dp, no courtesy runners but SPR's, no adults warming up pitchers, catchers must wear helmets not only to warm up pitchers but during infield and outfield, no illegal bat list, helmets cannot have stickers, writing or any modifications at all, different penalties for illegal substitution and so on.

Paul

bigsig · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 04, 2007, 12:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve M

Big,
Where are you - near Williamsport?

No, Long Island, NY. Here ASA umpires get assigned to PAL, PONY, Williamsport, local rec, everything. It's hard to keep up with all of the rule differences.

bigsig · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 04, 2007, 12:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Az.Ump

bigsig,

Good luck. This has been discussed here several times. The rule differences would take a small book not just a few pages. L.L. Is OBR based. It is essentially L.L. Baseball played with different pitching rules and leaving early penalties. Leaving early is even different for individual age groups. Obstruction, interference, substitution and safety have major differences. You will need to get a L.L. rule book. In the rear they have the rule differences between regular season and the International tournament. No Flex/Dp, no courtesy runners but SPR's, no adults warming up pitchers, catchers must wear helmets not only to warm up pitchers but during infield and outfield, no illegal bat list, helmets cannot have stickers, writing or any modifications at all, different penalties for illegal substitution and so on.

Paul

I was afraid of that. Thanks, I'll get the book.

IRISHMAFIA · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 04, 2007, 12:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigsig

No, Long Island, NY. Here ASA umpires get assigned to PAL, PONY, Williamsport, local rec, everything. It's hard to keep up with all of the rule differences.

Not really. Your association assigns umpires who happen to be ASA-registered to leagues/tournaments of other associations.

Two things, and no, I'm not trying to be a smart-***, but...

1) Are you registered with these other associations and, if not, what type of insurance do you carry?

2) How does someone get assigned a tournament who does needs to rely on rule differences from other associations to call the game?

Don't get me wrong, I don't doubt your are qualified, just curious though how this works.

greymule · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 04, 2007, 12:59pm

How does someone get assigned a tournament who needs to rely on rule differences from other associations to call the game?

Around here, I don't think there is such a thing as a purely LL umpire. The official LL tournaments are done by ASA/Fed guys who for insurance purposes send in a membership fee to LL. (Frankly, horrible pay, long games, poor softball. All the good players are on travel teams.) The umps may have to fill out a take-home open-book test, but I doubt they study much. However, since the coaches don't know the rules either, that hasn't been a problem (yet).

Next week, our ASA guys will be doing the state Babe Ruth tournament, as we did last year. The BR rules, which have NOTHING to do with Fed or ASA, are in more of a pamphlet than a rule book. The sections covering baserunning, OBS, INT, awards, etc., are taken verbatim from the OBR book. (They did add a rule against a deliberate crash at home, however.) All bats that meet standards for length, weight, and diameter are legal. A Miken Ultra is legal.

Again, you send in a fee so that you're "official." One umpire on the field has to have sent in a fee.

Last year, no one, including the TD, could say for sure whether the pitcher had to keep both feet on the rubber, as per ASA. The rule pamphlet doesn't cover it.

ASA/NYSSOBLUE · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 04, 2007, 05:41pm

Okay...time for another rant about LL 'Softball'....

LL gets a break in several ways as far as softball is concerned:

That magical name : Tons of parents and local governments get suckered in by that Name. They figure that it MUST be good - because it is Little League; never mind that most of the communities in this area, the girls program is a poor second cousin to the boys. One community about 20 years ago got so fed up with that, they went and disenfranchised themselves from LL, and set themselves up as an ASA JO based organization. Our local ASA president also happened to be state UIC at he time, and was very instrumental in helping them get umps at reasonable fees, etc. Today, the league is loaded with cash, and gives their kids such a BIG advantage when they start school ball (NY hs softball follows ASA JO rules for the most part).

Fields: I dont know about anywhere else, but LL here has a STRANGLEHOLD on any decent fields - sometimes even when they are 'municipal' or 'town' parks - alternate leagues, tournaments have to BEG to use those fields..and usually end up paying through the nose to use school fields - none of which are cared for very well after school ends...

and you are so right greymule - the play level in most LL around here is BRUTAL - very few kids play either school ball and/or travel teams participate..and when they do, they do not hang around very long..

ok...some of the steam has escaped...thanks for listening....

Steve M · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 04, 2007, 06:24pm

I'm in LL's back yard. I'm about 40 miles from Williamsport and I've worked a number of men's games with their head of umpiring - though none in the past 8 or so years. LL fields are just that - used for nothing but LL.
The high school aged group won the 2006 LL world series. And they are a very good high school team. As a side, it made for an interesting high school season as another local team won last year's 16&U Eastern National - they split in high school play.
Around here, LL gets all the press coverage - nothing for ASA teams or tournaments. And, with the exception of the team I mentioned earlier, the ASA teams are head and shoulders (and probably knees too) above the LL teams.

greymule · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 04, 2007, 07:30pm

Around here, LL gets all the press coverage - nothing for ASA teams or tournaments.

Ditto in central NJ. The local papers have big spreads full of photos and interviews for the LL tournaments. Some papers headline the winners on the front page. If you didn't know better, you'd think there was something really going on.

ASA results are listed in a little box, if the coaches phone them in.

How did a high school–aged team win the LL series? LL around here goes no higher than age 12.

Steve M · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 04, 2007, 08:20pm

"How did a high school–aged team win the LL series? LL around here goes no higher than age 12."

LL has all sorts of age groups, I think the oldest group is 15-18. That's the age group this team of HS sophomores won last year, I think.

IRISHMAFIA · #12 (**permalink**) Thu Jul 05, 2007, 06:30am

With all due respect to a great youth baseball program, I see LL softball program as having only two purposes to exist:

1. Give the girls an alternative to playing baseball (I don't think it is a secret that LL never really wanted girls on the baseball field);

2. Keep the family's money in the organization.

Unfortunately, there are less opportunities for LL softball players to travel and play tournaments. And if the parents move toward putting their little girl into travel ball, well, LL's financials may dwindle a bit.

JefferMC · #13 (**permalink**) Thu Jul 05, 2007, 08:54am

Nothing speaks to the dicotomy of the treatment of softball and baseball like Tuesday Morning's Greenville News.

The top of the front page mentioned that the Little League Coaches Pitch championship game had been played the night before, referencing the front page of the sports section. There was a three column wide, 10 inch article with two photographs about the game. The baseball game; won by one of two teams from that suburb (Easley). But across town in another suburb (Simpsonville), the home team won the equivalent softball tournament against another nearby team. I couldn't find anything in the paper about that at all.

Mountaineer · #14 (**permalink**) Thu Jul 05, 2007, 10:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve M

"How did a high school–aged team win the LL series? LL around here goes no higher than age 12."

LL has all sorts of age groups, I think the oldest group is 15-18. That's the age group this team of HS sophomores won last year, I think.

Actually, the Big League WS is played in Kalamazoo, MI and the host team from Dist. 2 in Michigan won it last year - beat Conn. if I'm not mistaken. Texas won the year before beating WV in the finals.

Steve M · #15 (**permalink**) Fri Jul 06, 2007, 04:49am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

Actually, the Big League WS is played in Kalamazoo, MI and the host team from Dist. 2 in Michigan won it last year - beat Conn. if I'm not mistaken. Texas won the year before beating WV in the finals.

Larry,
I think they were somewhere in Washington state for the past couple of years - finishing 3rd one year & winning it last year. I don't know what the age group is called.

edited to fix some typo's