Attitude and courtesy.
 

Guys and gals, we are a proud bunch here. There are several top notch umpires here, and then several who want to be top notch. (And then of course, there is me.) :D Anyway, over the past couple of weeks I have noticed a different temperment on this board, one that resembles in many ways the problems that we all dealt with at McGriff's, or even what the small board still deals with over here. There seems to be less tolerance of "stupid" questions, as many of us fear a troll in our midst. We used to answer courteously all questions here, regardless of the level that umpire may have achieved. What has happened that we still don't do that??? There was a first year umpire here who may have been asking what he felt was a legitimate question, and some of our old timers lambasted him for asking it. Why not just simply answer the question, or else lead him down the road of learning by asking him relavent questions to get the thinking process going? Don't make him feel less than just because he didn't understand a rule that you may feel is basic. We all had to learn once.

And I know that there is at least one troll in our midst. Let's not let one poster take away from us an enjoyable and valuable resource. Let's go back to being the congenial folks we have always been; welcoming all questions, treating everyone fairly until they show that they deserve to be treated otherwise. We owe it to them, but more importantly, we owe it to ourselves.

I certainly can remember my first year of putting on the uniform, and I'll be honest: I sucked. If I hadn't have found a mentor, I would have quit 15 years ago. I'm still not perfect, and we all have kinks to work out. Let's make this a great forum and welcome even the "dumb" questions. Lord knows, I probably have many. ;)

Very well said, Scott. Very well said.

My experience
 

I use these boards alot. I started in BB and ended up here in SB. The BB/SB/VB people on these boards have been the single most important tool I have used in improving as an official. They make me keep my eye on the ball-which is doing IT the right way.

Having said that over in the VB arena I had a poster-coach- get a bug about me and my questions and I basically lost interest in this guy chasing me around the VB forum and telling me what a crappy official I am. . So I went silent.

I played BB in high school so I wasn't totally clueless.
I played small ball in school so again not totally clueless.

I played VB at church-so I was TOTALLY CLUELESS. I am getting better but still at times clueless at what is going on.

I still read the VB forum but don't participate that much. I generally use the PM SYSTEM over there.

Be patient with people who are clueless. They know it , it could be why they showed up here.

Thank you Scott, for the courage to post what I hope many of us have noticed. I hope that we will see this as the wake-up call and return to our more congenial ways. One time in the past I posted a "dumb" question and received several good answers that were both friendly and helpful. I am unsure if I posted that same question now the response would be the same. Yes I know that many of the questions asked have been asked before, I would bet they will be asked again. I think we owe it to ourselves to keep this forum friendly and helpful. I know that I for one stopped reading at McGriff's a long time before it died it's long painful death because of trolls. No more Trolls -- and no more shoe advertisers either.

Bugg

I stopped posting/reading this site for several months after I tired of some of the aforementioned 'attitudes' that I encountered here. This is by far the best site for discussion among umpires, and I have spread the word about it to fellow umps and state officials. But I had to take a long break from here when it became almost as bad (read: not as enjoyable) as dealing with the ignorant, argumentative players from some of the rec (beer) leagues I'd work for. That seems to have curtailed some, since I've been back to this site. This is the best online resource any umpire or sports official could use, and I hope that is never compromised.

I agree but
 

I truly love this officiating board...came here from the basketball board because I started the task of learning softball and want to get things right...what i learned from the basketball board is that our mentors want us to spend time in the rules book followed up with case book situations...someone said it takes more than calling strikes and balls ,that the responsibility still lies with us to study...some questions seem stupid to us only because our experience has taught us differently...should they make this hard for us...maybe...should we come on this board and ask questions that might seem like no thought or study gone into it...no way...Ive ask some stupid questions and recieved some good advice... book study has at times overwelmed me because it shows no matter what you think you know you dont know...but to show respect to our mentors we should try to cite situations with some rules and book knowledge....thank you all for contributing to this most excellent discussion board.

You make some valid points there S..

I think a minimum level of "parent out of the stands" knowledge is required before you step foot behind the plate.. just out of a level of pride in a job you are doing...

However, your point is well taken.

Oh, and btw.. I dont recall this particular "golden era" where everyone was roses on this board. :D

I also have noticed some of the harsh comments and the one case you mentioned in particular. I thought at that time that we were becoming the baseball board. I read over there - very, very rarely post - and it doesn't take long to recognize the intollerance that they have for those that aren't as knowledgeable as they would like. One of the things I enjoy about softball is the comaradarie. It's different than in other sports . . . Let's not lose that here.

I thought it was just me that was feeling this way.

Thanks
 

Thanks you Scott for this post. I am in my second year of umpiring and I have been watching this board for the past 3 years. Not many of us started out our first year and went to an official ASA umpiring school. Most of us umpired when our leagues needed help, then went to a clinic maybe not put on by a sanctioning body, and eventually some regualrly attend the offical umpriuing clinics put on by the various sanctioning bodies.

AT times I feel like some responses are rather belittling and does not encourage a newer umpire to come back here and ask a question. I have undoubtadly learned more form this message board than from any clinic I have attended. So, we should all encourage other umpires to post their questions and review these messgae boards.

For those of you who still feel you shouldn't answer the stupid questions because that idiot new umpiure hasn't looked it up yet, at elast try just giving the rule number you are stating which allows us new comers to look it up and find out for ourselves.
Thanks again for bringint his up.
clevbrown

3 years interested in umpiring and 2 friggin years on the field and you've never had a tag up on a caught fly ball? :eek: Never seen it on TV even Baseball or when you played little league?

Out of curiosity - what age/league ball do you umpire? If its 8U coaches pitch, it may be routine in your league to send the player back, so there could be some kind of reason you did what you did.. and a reason the coaches didnt go ballistic.

I'm being nice now! This is just unbelievable and I am curious.

I'm probably one of the offenders Scott mentioned, and on real questions I'll try to let softball be the kinder, gentler board (I post on the other one ... and the attitude there has possibly rubbed off on me).

So ... I'll try to be nicer when that "idiot new umpire" asks a question they could have looked up.

That said... I suspect I'll still have trouble believing that someone who claims to have never seen a runner tag up on a fly ball (or leave early on a fly ball) before, is actually an umpire. I'm pretty sure I will continue to think that such a person is not an umpire, and is instead either a 12-year old pretending to be an umpire to resolve a question from their recent backyard Calvinball game, or just a troll, trying to stir things up and make the site worse. Like I said yesterday ... my girl playing 8U understands that you have to tag on a fly ball, and that if you left early and it's caught, you have to go back or you could be out. That question was BARELY more credible than, "Is a foul ball a strike?", and LESS credible than "Are the hands part of the bat?"

If that makes me bitter or mean ... I'm not sure I can fix that.

Okay, then, you can be the official Texas curmudgeon!!! :D

3 years interested in umpiring and 2 friggin years on the field and you've never had a tag up on a caught fly ball? Never seen it on TV even Baseball or when you played little league?

Out of curiosity - what age/league ball do you umpire? If its 8U coaches pitch, it may be routine in your league to send the player back, so there could be some kind of reason you did what you did.. and a reason the coaches didnt go ballistic.

I'm being nice now! This is just unbelievable and I am curious.

First off, I never mentioned nor is there any mention in this thread of a question regarding a tag up on a fly ball. I am not sure where that is coming from, but can we stay on subject in a single thread?

Secondly, I am sorry but you are being rude and this kind of response is exactly what Scott is talking about. If there is a requirement that you must have 10 years experience umpiring before viewing this board, then state it. Other wise, take your premadona attitude to another board and let those of use interested in learning stay on this one.

Thirdly, I have umpired 8U, 10U, 12U and 14U. I have made bad calls and I have made very good calls. I spend time on this forum trying to reduce the number of bad calls, why do you spend time on it?

Lastly, I have seen seasoned umpires blow calls in large sanctioned tournaments by calling the Infield Fly Rule with no one on 1st. So, I know everyone regardless of experience make mistakes, but some of us want to help the rest of use improve, even if we are teaching a 10 year old who happens to leave a message on this board.

If you don't want to be a teacher and don't want to be a student, then I suggest you find another board.

To use your words, "This is just unbelievable"
clevbrown

Heck, I've seen an ump in his second year call a fair ball that definitely wasn't so. The ball was hit in the air to the outfield and landed in foul territory, but he called it fair because "it had passed third base in fair territory, and THEN went foul."

No matter how boneheaded the question or ruling, I really don't care if the poster is who they say they are. If they're some kid wanting a ruling, well, what's wrong with giving him the answer? His coach probably doesn't even know, and maybe it gives him a better appreciation for who we are (unless, of course, we run him off by calling him an idiot for posting such a stupid question).

I do IT support for my full-time job, and I've firmly believed that one should never make anyone feel bad for asking questions, no matter how braindead it may seem to me. ;)

You can delete a thread ... but you can't delete our memory.

I don't think anyone is insisting on 10 years experience. But I do think questions on here that are so basic that ANYONE who has played the game at all would know the answer reveal something about the poster's true intentions.

If this is the thread that you are referring to, then you have the wrong poster.

Ungh. My apologies.

See ... you're right - I need to be nicer. :)

Guilty as Charged
 

I am guilty to the short terse replies as of late, and I have definatley fed the Troll on more than one occassion.

I apologize if I have offended any umpire no matter the level of experience.

I guess I am just really frustrated with Dr's not allowing me to work games anymore.

How long is this going to go on? The not working any games, that is?

Never again, according to the Dr's.
I have a need for a surgery that doesn't have very good odds of survival.
But on the bright side, they tell me if I have to have the surgery then I will be a carrot or potato afterwards.:p
Vegetable, maybe my intellect will rise to the level of some of the coaches I have dealt with over the years.:D

Geez. Sorry to hear this. We'll keep you and the family in our prayers.

To me it is no big deal now, I have had time to get used to the idea.
So, I am doing things I want to do and enjoying it a lot.

But, thanks for the prayers and the concern.

Hey, you're right. It is unbelievable. And you're right about all of us needing to be a teacher or a student or both.
Apparently there was a premature evaluation...not the first time someone on this board has done that. I've offended damn near everyone on this board. Some of the posters around here have, in the last few days, sent private messages informing me of how f'n stupid I am. However, at least some of them have forgiven me. And some of them have been kind enough to send me e-mails and even some notes in the good old U.S. Mail encouraging me in my own battles with my health.

so...don't give up on all of us.

Ha!

Skahtboi is right.. we got our noobs crossed.

Apologies!

Thanks for clearing that up Johnny Cochran of Umpires! :D

You've missed one, John. ;)

I'm part Polish, if you want to take a stab at it. Oh, and I'm balding, too.

Easiest job in Poland?
IQ tester.

Hardest job in Poland?
Guarding a full garbage truck.

;)

It's unfortunate that others have wanted to use this thread as a springboard for trying to reopen past discussions that are examples of your points.

I encourage others, especially those new to this board and to umpiring, to hang in there and ignore rude comments from the stands.

Scott, Thank you very much for trying.

Geez, I might tend to be a bit grumpy too!

Yeah, sometimes answers may seem to be terse and demeaning, but they probably weren't meant to be. When you have to explain the LBR for the umpteenth time in a single night, or try and explain why on a pick from home the batter isn't out because the catcher thought she was in the way, and such, it can put you in a somewhat defensive posture.

Sometimes those who ask the "stupid questions" will be offended by any answer that doesn't meet their preconceived notions. Most of us just hate to be told we are wrong!

Scott, Hope thing will improve. We will keep you in our thoughts.

That's it! The gloves come off! You... You...

Okay, I'm over it.

Hey, I'm an umpire. I've heard it all. ;)

I love this board. I am not doing ball this year because of work related issues but I love this board. I am thankful for people who know the rules and who love the game. I am thankful for a couple of the scoldings I have received here because they taught me to think before I post and to know the rules before I walk on the field. I am also thankful that I had the support of the other umpires on this board after my first ejection. Let's just remember that many sits are HTBT and even if we were there, we have different eyes. BUT, the rules stay the same and the interps need to be consistent. You guys are great and did I mention that I love this board?

I'm glad this topic was posted, these type of issues were addressed, and so many of the responses have been positive.

I do believe it's significant that some people have chosen not to reply to this thread at all, neither pro, nor con, or indifferent. I think that those members either believe that this is a non-issue, a worthless thread (but don't have the guts to say that) or that they, themselves, are above reproach on any level. It's too bad for all then, 'cause they probably won't change the manner in how they treat others here.

Let's see.... this thread took less than a half day to diverge into defensiveness, about a day for someone to bring up something stupid someone said in the past, and for that writing to be denied because the post had since been erased, and now, a page later, you are standing in judgment on those who did not reply in this thread? Do you understand the term pharisaic?

Ummm, pharisaic?
Is that the opposite of phariaseic?
You know, fair/foul..........:confused:
ohhh, excuse me. never mind...............:D

Yeah a day and a half - big deal. Those I'm talking about wait about a minute and a half after someone posts a question to go after them. So if they haven't chimed in (as they have on other threads posted after one began), I'd bet that they won't ever touch this one.

As someone who probably gets more than a few :rolleyes: for some of my questions, I appreciate that no one has publicly ridiculed me (I'm not counting Wade referring to me as overly officious on the calling time topic :p ). As a third year umpire, I am extremely grateful that some of you guys answer my questions, and I understand the reason some of the regulars always seem to ignore them. I do love this game. Even though I'm relatively new to umpiring, I spent fourteen years coaching baseball and fast pitch softball. It's funny that when I was coaching, I always thought I was fairly knowledgeable about the rules, but once I turned to umpiring I quickly realized just how ignorant I truly am.

Basically I wanted to take the opportunity to thank everyone again for helping me to become a better umpire.

We very frequently have local players do the changeover from player to official. After about 6 months, I usually ask them, "whole different game, isn't it?" The resounding response has been "oh GOD yes." Your experience, BKB, is not uncommon, and good for you for sticking with it after two full years. :)

I'd like to take this opportunity to thank the folks on this board for your "good attitude and courtesy" in allowing me (a non-official) to participate. I have learned a lot here and have lots more to learn.

Coming from a "player" background (D1/NAIA Collegiate catcher - member of ASA Nat. champ. team)....I think I bring a sometimes unique perspective to some situations.

ONE thing I've learned in my years of umpiring (10+, now) is that we're there because of THEM....and not the opposite.

It's OUR field.....but it's THEIR game......and we need to stay out of their way at EVERY opportunity.

I used to post here a LOT. Then.....(and I've experienced it, just today) the nit-picking of questions got to be a downer.....and it became unimportant for me to ask questions of my "peers".

Sad.

In the other thread, those two were just joking. They were encouraging all to laugh along with them. Why is that sad? This is a place where we can all relax and once in a while vent, but also let loose and play a little.

To address the rest of your post, I agree with much of what you said, except that it is also their field. I am just a part of it. I am kidded by others I work with as having a Zen approach to umpiring. I hate anything that interrupts the flow of the game that the players have set, and I feel I have done my best job when no one even knows I was there.

Common ground.

The other thread we speak of......continues down its' rosy path :rolleyes:

And I hate this adage(?) :) There is no reason for an official to be invisible. Too many umpires try to live by this credo by being GAGAs and that makes a weak umpire.

There is nothing wrong with being noticed for doing one's job. That does not mean an umpire should seek recognition, that will come when earned.

Scott is correct, it is not our field, our game and not even our rules. Umpires are the facilitators of the application of the rules under which the teams agreed to play. Umpires are the controllers of the game. Umpires are icons of fair play and application of the rules. Our mere presence should give the teams a nice, warm feeling of confidence. Okay, I've gone just a bit too far on that one :D

Nonetheless, there is nothing wrong with people knowing you are there, but why they are aware that you are there.

If I may expand on your post, Mike,

Umpires are analogous to judges (or justices). Much of what you say about good umpires applies to good judges. The best of them know the rules/laws, apply them fairly and strongly, and win or lose, leave the participants on both sides knowing they got a fair shake. The worst of them don't know the rules/laws, apply them poorly, and can be more concerned with enhancing their own image by hiding their mistakes or interjecting their own opinions of how things should be than with simply applying the rules/laws as written.

You and some of the other guys here are working to create more of the former and less of the latter.

You would probably make a fine Supreme Court Justice.

Hustle. You forgot to mention that good judges hustle. And know all of the angles...:D