Your ruling?
 

Newbies first, then veterans can correct them.

Bases loaded, 2 outs, full count, R1 and R2 off as the ball crosses the plate. R3 not so bright. Pop up near 2nd base. R1 scores easily. R2 scores before the ball comes down. R3, seeing the popup, gives up and is standing about 15 feet off of first base.

F4 fails to catch the popup. After the ball hits the ground, F4 chases R3 back toward first, where BR has already rounded the bag, causing R3 to run (in reverse) past BR. R3 gets all the way back to the base and is tagged (BR is about where F4 started the play when the tag is made).

How many runs score and why?

edit to correct R1/3 error and technicality on timing of when R1 and R2 left)

Are you sure this is what you meant to say???? (Check out the red lettering.)

I'm inclined to say two since the force was off when the BR passed the runner retreating to first, assuming the BR did this after the other runners had crossed the plate.

Obviously, an incompletely editted baseball scenario! ;)

Thanks! I fixed it.

No, a softball scenario, written by someone who's been arguing too much on that other board this morning. :)

From my browsing (and occasional --- VERY occasional) posting on that board, I would not have thought it possible to argue too much there... :cool: :D

Speaking ASA SP.

None, either R1 or R2 is out for leaving the base prior to the ball reaching the plate.

Thanks for the continued derailing... :)

I see only one real answer so far ... go ahead and guess, non-1000-post guys.

I'm curious as to the answer. No one else seems to be.

I'm rethinking my answer though. If the BR had already touched first base, then ran past R3, then R3 is no longer entitled to first base, thus making the tag of her a fourth out. I'm a baseball guy who occasionally does softball (expected to do so in this my association), so do softball rules recognized a fourth out like baseball does?

TB - tried to send you an IM, but it's shut off on your end.

Why?

There is only one answer unless some SP guy bobs in here and talks about runners leaving early.. but mccrowder fixed that :D

Its a timing play, the tag is immaterial.

The out is when the "BR" passes R3 (even though its R3s fault for being a doofus)

Two run score since R2 scored before the out, 3rd out, refill sunflower seed time.

edit remove

re: No answers... I wasn't sure how long you wanted me to wait...

Keep waiting.....

Why not? What is keeping R3 from returning to 1B? Then again, why would R3 continue after the third out of the inning has been executed?

You want newbies? How about non-umps?

Assuming it is ASA fastpitch and 12U or above, I see it like Wadeintothem, all the way down to his description of R3.

R1 and R2 left their bases legally after the pitch, and scored before the 3rd out, which was when BR passed R3.

If they're too stupid to come in out of the rain (or be off and running with two outs), they're likely one of those candidates to keep going with 3 outs... ;)

No argument there, John. However, I'm really more interested in the response to the first two parts of my post.:confused:

Guess this one was easier here than at our meeting the other night. Some normally rules-savvy umpires were having trouble with the idea that even though the sitch provided had BR passing unintentionally, a bright BR could do this intentionally to prevent a tag on R3 (which WOULD nullify the runs, obviously)

Should have known this group would be smarter than the general populus.

Let me get this straight...

The force out at 2nd would have obviously nullified any runs scored on the play, but by R3 running backwards and being passed by the BR, the 3rd out was called on the BR and was not a force.

Tagging 2nd would have prevented the runs. Chasing R3 backward did not. Interesting.

If the defense does their job and catches the ball in flight, no runs would score.

If F4 plays for the force at 2B, no runs would have scored unless the BR passes R3 prior to a play at 2nd.

Don't feel bad for the defense, their inept play gave the runs to the offense, not the rule book.

Would it be possible for the defense to go for the 4th out of the inning to get the force out at 2nd and nullify the runs due to the force ?

I think a fourth out is only recognized in an appeal situation, correct?

What force out at 2nd? The BR is retired, so R3 is no longer forced to 2nd and can retreat to 1st, no?

There is no fourth out available, nor is there a force out available.

Yes..........

Actually, I think you're referring to 8-7-R. If so, then I'll have to disagree with ya there. Since it was phrased "as the ball crosses the plate," I'm going to assume that the ball has reached the plate. In that case, both runners, leaving at that exact (yeah, right... I know, I know... no such thing) moment should be fine.

I'm with wadeintothem on this one, but hey... I've been known to be wrong, even when I'm right. :D

Originally, the OP stated the runners were off with the pitch. The author since then had edited the scenario.

Ahhh... Then touche. You'd be absolutely correct, sir!

Wait...

The defense did not catch the ball, and therefore the BR was not retired. BR passed R3 on the basepath after gaining possession of 1B (meaning R3 no longer had right of possession to 1B). That means the runs count so long as the BR did not pass R3 on the BP before both runs scored. That's how I see and read the OP's post.