Whaddaya Do?

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

Tonight was a varsity HS game. I am PU and in my pregame, I said "I have the lead runner on tags with multiple runners on base". To me, that's pretty self-explanitory. In the fourth inning with R1 on 2nd and R2 on first, the batter hits a ball to left center and R1 rounds 3rd heading for home. As the throw comes to F2, R1 heads back to 3rd. F2 makes a snap throw back to 3rd and actually puts the tag on her. My partner, who moved into the infield, is right there - everyone in the park is looking at her waiting for the call and she looks at me and says "that's your call". Whaddaya do?

I made the call and explained to her in great detail between innings what is meant by my taking the lead runner. She thought I had the lead runner for EVERYTHING with multiple runners on base. Sheeeeeesh!

Of course, the situation is somewhat complicated by the fact that we date too! Therefore, I bailed her out, made the call - VERY late - and had a coach want to climb up my a$$ for it. She's a 3rd year umpire and should have known this - and I did tell her so and explained that she kinda hung me out on the play. How would you have handled this one (assuming it wasn't your girlfriend!)?

If you are going to make it a habit of working with your girl friend you better get used to any mistake being your fault.

And if you get married, then you need to find a new umpire partner, and make it a man.

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

If you are going to make it a habit of working with your girl friend you better get used to any mistake being your fault.

And if you get married, then you need to find a new umpire partner, and make it a man.

She's not my partner on the softball field. I think our assigning committee thought it would be "cute" to have us work together. One of the college conferences I work in has a husband/wife that work together sometimes. I'm not a fan of the idea. She honestly thought it was MY call based on something a couple of "seasoned" (notice the quotes) umpires did in a previous game. Needless to say, it's on the agenda for discussion at our local board meeting this Sunday!

We are not getting married - I did that for 16 years. I was furious about it last night but I'm much calmer this morning.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

We are not getting married - I did that for 16 years. I was furious about it last night but I'm much calmer this morning.

Why would you be "furious" at all? She's a THIRD year umpire - and you weren't clear.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Why would you be "furious" at all? She's a THIRD year umpire - and you weren't clear.

Shouldn't an umpire know that well before third year, and I think ''I have the lead runner on tags with multiple runners on base" is clear.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Shouldn't an umpire know that well before third year, and I think ''I have the lead runner on tags with multiple runners on base" is clear.

In different areas, the particulars on plays may differ. But yes, I would assume that this girl, working 3 years in the same area, would know what Larry meant ... but as I read this, it seemed to me that it was LARRY who meant something different that I expected. With anyone I work with, PU would have had this call. If what he said means something different where he works, then he should have been clearer.

Here, PU has that call. It's a tag play, on the lead runner. LR belongs to PU.

[WestMichBlue]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

She honestly thought it was MY call based on something a couple of "seasoned" (notice the quotes) umpires did in a previous game. Needless to say, it's on the agenda for discussion at our local board meeting this Sunday!

Guess what Larry - that was your call! As that play developed you should have been in a holding area between home and 3B. If R1 went home with no play on her, you let her go and you had R2 if she came to 3B. If the throw went home, then you slide back home for that play.

If R1 went back, you have any call at 3B. Your partner should have been inside watching R2 at 2B and B-R at 1B. My only issue is that she may have been too close to 3B. Her only reason for even looking over there would have been to support you in case of a missed tag or dropped ball.

Get the salt and pepper out!

WMB

[Andy]

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

Guess what Larry - that was your call! ....
WMB

I happen to agree with WMB here and was wondering why no one else had brought it up before this......

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Andy

I happen to agree with WMB here and was wondering why no one else had brought it up before this......

Because I don't know what type of arrangements he has with his partner other than what was stated earlier.

If it was indeed a snap throw back to 3B, his partner may very well had position. If she was there and he was not, it is simple to deviate from the prescribed mechanics. BU could have simply called: "I've got third", and then made the call.

A lot of this may depend on how committed the runner acted toward the plate prior to retreating to third.

Think about it. If a runner is making a mad dash toward the plate, are you going to sit in the holding zone and wait on a play, or move just ahead of the runner. In a perfect world, the umpire can stay with a runner, but in the real world, the umpire doesn't know s/he is going to need to change directions until the runner actually has a couple of steps on you moving AWAY.

Without actually being there, we don't know. Maybe the BU should have picked up the play. Maybe Larry could have given her a heads up that he wasn't going to be able to get in position with a quick, "you got third". Or maybe Larry kicked his assignment. We just don't know.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

Guess what Larry - that was your call! As that play developed you should have been in a holding area between home and 3B. If R1 went home with no play on her, you let her go and you had R2 if she came to 3B. If the throw went home, then you slide back home for that play.

If R1 went back, you have any call at 3B. Your partner should have been inside watching R2 at 2B and B-R at 1B. My only issue is that she may have been too close to 3B. Her only reason for even looking over there would have been to support you in case of a missed tag or dropped ball.

Get the salt and pepper out!

WMB

Originally Posted by Andy

I happen to agree with WMB here and was wondering why no one else had brought it up before this......

I just logged in and thought the same.
But it raises another situation about whose call if R1 went home and was played on drawing the PU home, but then a subsequent play went to 3rd. My knowledge is that the BU has 3rd if there is a play at home.

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

Guess what Larry - that was your call! As that play developed you should have been in a holding area between home and 3B. If R1 went home with no play on her, you let her go and you had R2 if she came to 3B. If the throw went home, then you slide back home for that play.

If R1 went back, you have any call at 3B. Your partner should have been inside watching R2 at 2B and B-R at 1B. My only issue is that she may have been too close to 3B. Her only reason for even looking over there would have been to support you in case of a missed tag or dropped ball.

Get the salt and pepper out!

WMB

No it wasn't. BU has first play on the infield. I had a throw coming to the plate and I'm there. BU is in the C position. Lead runner on tags is on a caught fly ball. Under no circumstance would this have been my call. At least that's the way we are told to do it by our interpreter and our guy on the national rules committee . . .

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

Guess what Larry - that was your call! As that play developed you should have been in a holding area between home and 3B. If R1 went home with no play on her, you let her go and you had R2 if she came to 3B. If the throw went home, then you slide back home for that play.

If R1 went back, you have any call at 3B. Your partner should have been inside watching R2 at 2B and B-R at 1B. My only issue is that she may have been too close to 3B. Her only reason for even looking over there would have been to support you in case of a missed tag or dropped ball.

Get the salt and pepper out!

WMB

His pregame aside.. with this scenario -

She starts in C and moves in on a play from the left side and you categorically state this is PU's call?

I dont agree at all. She would have button hooked in. Shes of course in a great spot for this call, doing what she should be doing. PU is nailed home, or close to home, on this play unless there is a play somewhere else first. At a minimum, PU is probably behind a quick throw back to 3B.

I dont agree in general principle with you at all.

There are things that could have happened where things could change, but you are pretty categoric that this is PU's call and that is not accurate.

[WestMichBlue]

Defending my position.

1. Maybe this is a HTBT, but I saw a runner round 3B, then scramble to get back to beat a “snap throw” by someone in the infield. I don’t see her even halfway home, only a few steps past third. So why can’t the PU make that call?

2. I don’t interpret a throw from the outfield and a second throw from the infield as being the “first play on the infield.” I am not sure there is any difference if the ball went directly from the outfield to 3B, it is still the PU’s call.

3. If the throw went home, and the catcher made the throw back to 3B then I assume the PU should have been closer to home and the call now belongs to the BU. I can also assume that the runner was more than a few steps towards home (if F1 let the ball go through).

4. If the throw goes home too late, and the catcher steps out and “cuts” the throw and throws to another base, including 3B, then the call belongs to the BU.

5. The BU should be coming inside and moving towards the center of the infield. Her first obligation is to find the ball so that she doesn’t get beaned. Then the flight of the ball will indicate her next play. Still has to watch B-R at 1B.

6. IF the throw from the OF goes home then BU needs to be prepared to take any base that the catcher throws to. Unfortunately, has to wait until the catcher makes a motion; anticipating the play will get you in trouble.

WMB

[mcrowder]

NOW I see what you meant by that vague statement that "I have the LR on tags". And perhaps this was the confusion with your girlfriend as well:

On Tags - means to me (and everyone I work with) - plays in which a fielder is trying to tag a runner.

"On Tag-Ups" is a completely different thing, and apparently what YOU meant. Apparently girlfriend (and I!) took it the other way. (I usually actually say, in the conference, "On fly balls, I have the lead runner's base".)

[varefump]

This is an easy play to cover if umpires use Modern Mechanics and get rid of the antiquated Inside-Out/Outside-In principle.

On the play discribed, the BU would rotate around 2nd base staying outside the diamond. His/her primary responsibilty on the base hit is to watch R2 touch 2nd and BR touch 1st and make sure there is no OBS at either base. The BU should now be positioned near the normal 'B' starting position where he/she can move to cover any play at 1st or second.

The throw from LCF should be going to Home, in which case the ball is now in the infield and the BU is properly stationed 'outside' and out of the throwing lanes.

The PU would have all calls at 3rd and Home on initial or subsequent plays, unless it is on the BU (trail runner) at 3rd, when the BU has that play.

Should the PU need 'help' on the snap throw back to 3rd, the BU has a great angle to see the play from his/her position near 2nd. Remember that angles are much more important than proximity when making calls.

Since our association has gone to teaching and using Modern Softball Mechanics, all the umpires are finding out that the ASA manual (what the NFHS basically uses) that was written back in the 70's has no place in 21st century fast-pitch softball.

Other Modern Base Mechanics include doing away with the 'button hook'; staying outside the diamond as much as possible, and using a new 'D' position anytime a runner is on 3rd.

I can't wait for the traditionalists to respond.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by varefump

This is an easy play to cover if umpires use Modern Mechanics and get rid of the antiquated Inside-Out/Outside-In principle.

On the play discribed, the BU would rotate around 2nd base staying outside the diamond. His/her primary responsibilty on the base hit is to watch R2 touch 2nd and BR touch 1st and make sure there is no OBS at either base. The BU should now be positioned near the normal 'B' starting position where he/she can move to cover any play at 1st or second.

The throw from LCF should be going to Home, in which case the ball is now in the infield and the BU is properly stationed 'outside' and out of the throwing lanes.

The PU would have all calls at 3rd and Home on initial or subsequent plays, unless it is on the BU (trail runner) at 3rd, when the BU has that play.

Should the PU need 'help' on the snap throw back to 3rd, the BU has a great angle to see the play from his/her position near 2nd. Remember that angles are much more important than proximity when making calls.

Since our association has gone to teaching and using Modern Softball Mechanics, all the umpires are finding out that the ASA manual (what the NFHS basically uses) that was written back in the 70's has no place in 21st century fast-pitch softball.

Other Modern Base Mechanics include doing away with the 'button hook'; staying outside the diamond as much as possible, and using a new 'D' position anytime a runner is on 3rd.

I can't wait for the traditionalists to respond.

I'm not necessarily a traditionalists, but the mechanics you describe, in my experience (and I have tried the "stay outside") does not place members of an umpire crew in the best position to make vaious calls at multiple bases.

Been there, done that. When it comes to balancing the pros and cons, I'll stick with what works. Just because the present mechanics and I/O was developed a while back, doesn't mean it has become stagnent as they change annually as the game and player's skills change.

Call me what you want, but I'll cover any game better than you and your fellow "Modern Mechanics" umpires.