Ground rule double?
 

Home run fence stops at the foul lines, leaving a fifteen foot gap between it and the fences marking dead ball territory. B1 hits a hard grounder fair past third. It rolls over the left-field line into foul ball territory, then through the aforementioned gap, and keeps rolling. B1 touches 'em all while defensive coach is yelling for a ground rule double. No such ground rule was discussed in the pregame conference.

Fed Rule 5-1-1-f says that a fair batted ball over fair ground is dead if it goes over, through, or wedges in a fence. 8-4-3-i says runner advances without liability when fair ball bounces over or rolls under or through a fence or any designated boundary of the playing field.

Where should B1 be after the play? Why?

2B.

Fair batted ball bounced into DBT.

This isn't a "ground rule double", it is a "book rule double." As greymule said. (Even though the ASA rule book does include "ground rule double" in the index, it refers you to the actual rule.)

As long as we are being precise - it is a two base award from time of pitch. For all runners. NFHS 8-4.3.h

WMB

Does that depend on whether the aforementioned gap between the foul pole and the side fence/line was declared a dead ball line as a ground rule?
Is that for all codes?

Unless you are willing to allow a fielder to run out that gap and catch a fly ball on the back side of the home run fence for an out, you pretty much have to consider the fence and its imaginary extension an automatic dead ball line. And, yes, that would apply to all codes. Most definitions of dead-ball territory start with something like "That area beyond any real boundary, such as a fence ....". In my mind, it is understood that ALL the area past that fence is dead ball territory.

In order to not consider that dead ball territory, you would need to have defined in your pregame how the line does extend after the end of the fence. Does it curve back around behind the fence and make that area live, or does it then extend at a 90 degree angle to the end of the fence, and run parallel to the side fence or line? All obvious absurdities which could never be accepted; the obvious answer is that the home run fence is extended.

And, yes, this also still applies even if the fielder gets the ball without stopping and raising their arms.

Now obvious to me as well. :rolleyes: Good thing I get to my second coffee before games, if not before questions. :o
Of course, I don't know AFA, USSSA, NSA, AAA, USFA, XYZ, Dixie, etc. yet; so I'll use that as an excuse. ;) :)

Eh....the wording is pretty much the same in all of these codes. I think it is exactly the same in AAA and XYZ! :D

I wasn't being precise; I was being symmetrical! ;)

Maybe I'm missing something here, but if this was the home field of a HS team, would the determination of playable territory and all other ground rules not be that of that team's AD/manager/coach?

If so, maybe OP can give us what the school offered.

OP replies:
 

I was PU, and had noticed the fence but didn't think about the possibility of this particular play. High school home coach offered nothing at pregame conference. Her last comment after I ruled home run was "You gotta know the ground rules, Blue!"

FWIW, I am persuaded that foul ground beyond the home run fence has to be DBT and I should have called it a "rulebook double" even in the absence of an express ground rule, based on custom and common sense. Thanks Greymule, Dakota, and AtlUmpSteve.

First, a very small "Shame on you" for not forseeing this possibility... but it's very small compared to ...

Second - a HUGE FU to the coach. I'm not sure I'd have ejected for that comment - in fact, I probably wouldn't. But that comment would certainly have pissed me off, and gotten at least a "Coach - that's YOUR job at the plate conference." His leash would certainly be short after that comment.

And ... in the absence of a ground rule, it think it would be fair to assume this to be a rulebook double, just as it would be fair to rule a ball caught outside that invisible line where the fence should have been as a ball not caught in play.

It is the home team job to define the ground rules, but it is an umpiring responsibility to know them and ensure they are defined.

I can't imagine ejecting or even being angry about that comment, especially when she was correct. But maybe Texan coaches are more difficult.

And it's a "two base award", either by book or ground rule.

It is true that at a field where the OF fence ends at the foul line, it sure can't hurt to clarify in the pre-game conference that any fair ball that bounces past the fence is 2 bases TOP.

This situation reminds me of a Legion game I played in 40+ years ago. Their guy hit a drive over our center fielder's head, and the ball rolled and rolled on the hard dry ground and finally, as the BR was on his way to 3B, went under a fence that separated the field from the parking lot more than 500 feet away. Our coach argued for a ground/book rule double, but the ump said that at that field, they didn't consider that distant fence to be related to the field, so it was "all you can get." So our coach argued that such should have been discussed during the pre-game conference and put the game under protest. (We won anyway, so the question became moot. I suspect the ump was careful to cover the situation in the future, though.)

True, ejection is not appropriate here. However, a "didn't you cover your ground rules at the pre-game meeting coach?" may be. Not loud to show up the coach, but to definitely get their attention.

It is the home team's responsibility to provide the ground rules, though if not offered, the umpire should ask the coach for them before allowing the coach's to leave the plate area at the pre-game.

This should have been a "ground" rule double and you should have been able to sell it.

Home coach's "You gotta know the ground rule, Blue!" comment was in a frustrated tone of voice, not accusatory, so I didn't take it personally, despite the second person singular pronoun. I just raised my eyebrows, she paused for two beats as if listening to what she had just said and realizing her responsiblity, and nothing further was said, ever.

I bet she will mention it in all her future pregames on that field. And on similar fields, I will make clear that foul ball territory past the truncated fence is DBT and any fair ball hit into it will result in a two base award from TOP.

What would be the appropriate ruling in this case (ASA 12-U): Playing at a facility with back-to-back fields with no fences between and games going on at both fields. Batter smacks the hell out of the ball and it goes past the outfield all the way into the other field. Fielder in the other field notices it and picks it up and throws it back into an outfielder from the original field who was chasing after it. BR was already home by the time the ball was relayed in to the pitcher.

Home run? Ground Rule Double? Something else?

Depends on how it got there. If it was a ground ball, and if discuessed during the pregame that there was an "invisible barrier" that separated the fields, then a "ground rule 2"" If it went in the air and IF it was discussed during the pregame that "any ball they went beyond a certain distance in the air would be considered a HR", otherwise a "ground rule 2".

Also, specify that any ball touched by anyone on the other field is dead when touched. Runner positioning is just as if it went under a fence at that moment.

I disagree with your last sentence, Cecil.

OK, since no ground rules were discussed before the game, and since there is no physical boundary (line, fence, other barrier such as tree line, etc.) to the field, then what would you have called had there NOT been a game going on on the other field and no one other than a player had picked up the ball?

"Inside the park" HR, right?

This is spectator interference, where the spectator has entered the "field of play". Dead ball, and runners placed according to umpire judgement. Since she was already home, run scores. ASA 8-5-L.

In the "coulda, shoulda, oughta" category, the PU, seeing this layout, should have gotten the ground rules established before the game.

It is more or less a blocked ball and the umpire may award runners the bases the runner would have reached safely had the ball not been touched.

There is not going to be a specific rule as in Championship Play, fields are to be enclosed.

If you need a reference, it would be 8.5.L which only notes the DEAD BALL under effect. Check RS under INTERFERENCE for the effect of SPECTATOR INTERFERENCE.

That's why you guys get paid the big bucks (LOL). Most of us "laymen" can figure out the 80% of the game that is covered by the simplest and most commonly-known 20% of the rules and is pretty self-evident when it happens.

It's when that wierd 20% of stuff like this happens that requires the expertise of the guy in blue. Thanks.