Two Umpires System question
 

Need some help about this.
I am aware of what the Manual says.
Now someone is saying it could be changed...

No runners on base. B1 hits a short ground ball to right centerfield.
BU moves to foul territory, ready to judge the play at first base.
The subsequent throw is not correct and the runner go on towards second base.

Wich umpire will cover the play at second?
And what if in case the runner will go over third and home plate?

Thanks everybody (if possible pls cite ASA or other ruleset...)

Ciao

Under the 2 man system, the base umpire is responsible for the batter-runner all the way to 3rd base (page 245).

On all balls hit through the infield the mechanic I use is to button hook into the infield and observe the BR touch 1st base. This puts you in a good position to watch if there is a throw from the outfield to first or to cut across the infield as the BR continues running to 2nd and/or 3rd.

Hope this helps.

This is a good chance to properly deviate from the "BU takes the BR all the way to third" mechanic. When the BU moves into foul ground for the possible call at 1B on a throw from the right fielder, the PU should move toward the pitcher's circle. If the throw to first is poor and the runner attempts second, the PU should communicate, "I have the runner" -- and the BU communicates, "I have the plate" -- and rotates behind the PU.

BU can't go into fair territory (and hence be ready to button hook) in the OP scenario without getting into the middle of the throw (potentially). This situation is where the BU starting in the "almost B" position has an advantage.

If the runner goes to 2nd because of a bad throw, the BU should be able to get a good enough angle to cover 2nd. More of a problem is if the runner misjudges and the throw goes to 2nd.

What change have you heard, Antonella?

The hit was to right-center - as soon at it appears it's going to clear F4, I'm busting butt to a line between 1B and F1 - shouldn't be a problem. In all of my games, I've been caught in foul ground once - on a shot between RF and the line nearly caught but shorthopped. It whizzed by at head level, and I WOULD have been in the way (as you describe) of either the ball or F3's play on the ball, but by the time I tried to start heading to the infield, the ball was already on it's way back. Luckily, it was caught for an out, and I was not stuck in the OP's sitch.

A ball to RCF should not be a problem ball.

That said ... I HAVE discussed this with PU's on occasion - and they would make the exception and head toward 2B just in case, with us reversing responsibilities for the rest of the play.

The mechanic that Larry(argodad) gave is perfectly acceptable in situations such as the one posed in the OP. This is the one that I use, and I usually cover it with my partners during the pregame.

More importantly, the plate umpire, hustling straight through the middle of the diamond will be able to get not just a better angle than the BU for a potential play at second, but the best angle. Often times "good enough" just isn't really good enough, especially in higher level games.

I was taking the OP at his word that he had to stay in foul ground.

I agree, just trying to cover all aspects, especially if the PU does not react. Even if covered in pre-game, the PU might not read it the same.
Caveat: the switch requires verbal communication by the PU, as Larry said.

That is easier said than done. If there is a bad throw, that runner is going to get a nice jump on the BU coming from foul ground. On top of catching the runner, the BU also needs to worry about possibly avoiding a bad throw, a fielder trying to catch the bad throw, possibly an excited coach waving like a windmill on speed. Even then, depending on where the ball ends up, to get into a proper position, the umpire may cross in front of a possible throwing lane.

Too many things could go wrong with this to rely on it. PU should always be alert to the possibility of needing to pick-up a trapped partner's call. If the PU executes the prescribed mechanics properly, it shouldn't be an issue.

I agree that the PU should be in position to possibly pick up BU if necessary. IMO, and one I have heard universally, is that there is NO TIME that 2 man mechanics call for the BU to cover home. The sole exception that I can think of is if the PU breaks his leg and is laying on the ground immobile.

If I am PU and I have the runner, I have the runner the rest of that play, unless the runner retreats to 1B. If I hear "I have the plate", my response is "NO, YOU DON'T".

Dear friends,

I found very helpful all your posts.
I agree the situation in the OP should be an exception to the standard movements.

My opinion is that BU in a simple situation should follow the runner towards second base… if the ball (throw, play) comes from the area between home plate/first base/foul territory, BU should try to go to 2^ staying OUTSIDE the baseline. If the ball (throw, play) comes from the OUTFIELD (foul or fair it doesn’t matter - e.g. a no catch), BU should follow the runner staying in the infield. To say it differently the “outside/inside theory” should be followed also in this kind of situation.
And - plus - we are still following the principle Henry Pollard said once (and I never forget) "the play dictates".

I ABSOLUTELY agree that sometimes PU has a better angle to a possible play at second base: PU is already (almost) in the middle of the infield (trailing batter-runner) and what PU should do is just continue towards second base. In this scenario BU is obviously “blocked” in foul territory and cannot reach the right position to follow BR!

My FINAL question is: should we adopt the “exception” (PU covering the bases and BU go at the plate) as a “rule” (a drawing on our manual) or we should better say this is just an alternate possibility based on what will happen during the play and/or the two umps decisions before the game?

Ancora grazie per l’aiuto!

On those hits, its REALLY important to GET INSIDE the diamond and NOT get stuck in foul territory.... Ive seen too many base umpires "watch" the ball into right field for too long, and get stuck outside as a result....and once you get stuck out there, youre useless on an overthrow. You will NOT catch the runner to get a good look at the play at second. So try HARD to get in there. It IS almost always possible. Having said that, If I work with an umpire that I havent seen or met before, I will pregame this exact scenario so that we have 2nd base covered. I dont think it should be adopted as a mechanics because its technically a breakdown in coverage...

Only if you add this coverage is to be used only when plate umpire breaks a leg, or suffers some other crippling injury covering the bases for the base umpire.

Base umpire NEVER covers home in two umpire mechanics. Not on this play; NEVER. You already had one breakdown in responsibility and coverage; certainly don't add a second breakdown in the same play.

Why are you so adamant on this? What if the PU covering home runs the risk of putting him in a throwing lane. The BU could have already made it to the point of the plate holding area long ago, be set and waiting for any potential play at the plate. Why not maximize your use of umpires?? I personally have no problem with my partner taking the play at home if I am the PU in the scenario we have discussed. He is already there, ahead of the play.

Antonella,

I know there are times when a sharply hit ball to right filed will require you to position yourself in foul territory in order to make that call at 1st, and while there is a lot of good advice here, let me reiterate, whenever possible try to get yourself into the infield on all balls hit to the outfield (base hits). You will be in much better position to watch runners hit bases and make calls at 2nd and/or 3rd.

If you have the good fortune to work with the same partner that’s great, but I’ll do 32 FED games this year and over 100 ASA/PONY games and rarely have the same partner. Don’t put your self in the position of assuming the PU will cover 3rd, in my experience it happens infrequently.

Hope you have a great season!

Didn't mean to offend anyone with what I wrote, and didn't realize no one likes to hear stories like what I related. So...poof, it's gone. I'll take my 12 different medications on Saturday morning, put on my cap which is a little too big since all my hair keeps falling out in clumps, and drag my incompetent butt out on the field for a few games...then go home, take my other 6 different medications plus the five I take twice a day, and get ready to do it again on Sunday - and hope like hell I don't offend anyone in the umpiring community. I appreciate the opportunities I've had to umpire ... and I don't have any problem coming inside... and I certainly did not intend to support or suggest something that shows anything less than competency. You all have a good day and enjoy every opportunity you get.

Nobody likes to hear stories like the one you write about. But any umpire in reasonably good shape can get inside, before F3 gets into position to take a throw. There are cases where F9 is playing close to the edge of the grass, and a hot shot is hit directly there...Otherwise, I have a problem with competency.

Tony is RIGHT..... unless that fielder is already WAY up close to the infield..and unless its a sharp and I mean ROCKET to the outfield..... you can..and SHOULD get inside...... I DONT mean to question anyones competency..but if you get HIT with a ball in that situation...YOU SCREWED UP...I know that sounds harsh, but its the truth...... on those shots, take one FAST look WHILE YOU ARE ALREADY MOVING..and get inside. you should know where the fielder is before the pitch..... I have no problem with the BU getting to the plate on this BREAKDOWN, but I think that it should be a very rare occurence.

I agree that on 99.9% of the balls hit to right field, we should and can come inside. However, that doesn't mean that everyone will come inside. I had a partner on Saturday that, on a lazy fly hit to the fence in right field, he stayed in foul territory. So...guess who had second and was ready to take third in the event something happened where the runner was able to advance?

The issue we are dealing with here, though, is not what should happen in an ideal umpiring world, but what should happen if the BU goes into foul territory to make a call.

If you had a 3-umpire crew, shouldn't U2 be heading toward right field to cover the catch?

A BU not going out should get inside the diamond anytime they can on a ball to the OF and it is not that difficult if the BU moves with the batted ball on it's way out, not waiting for the play and then attempting to beat the throw.

Not that Steve needs someone to stick up for him, but what scenario can you imagine where the plate umpire, inside the diamond, following this situation, would be in the way. The only possible scenario includes multiple bad throws, so unless the there was an attempt at second base and the throw went to the outfield fence allowing the batter runner to attempt for home, the throw will always come from the outfield third base line/foul territory area. And in the scenario I mentioned, it will be obvious that no play well occur at third and an observant umpire could retreat to the plate directly while watching the runner touch third and get into the standard calling position for this play.

That said, I have no problem relinquishing the plate to my base umpire as long as we communicate. The mechanics are a strong guideline, but sometimes you just have to adjust and I can see no reason why two umpires can't work together to make each job easier and keep umpires ahead of the play. In this case the base umpire has not chased, and even if they had, I still don't see a reason why they are never able to help out and take the plate. Most importantly, I think it is our top responsibility to make sure the play is covered and in the best position possible which means we can't rule out any umpire being at any base at any time for any call.

Now, something I haven't seen mentioned yet, in regards to the OP, is the first base umpire chasing on this play. With no runners on, my first instinct is to think trap possibilities and chase if necessary. This slight delay can sometimes eliminate my chance to get inside for the snap throw so if I don't chase, I stay outside. I think it is important to get inside whenever possible because the mechanics in the book are there to put umpires in the best place possible for all calls in all situations and deviating reduces opportunities in certain situations. I think it is important that an umpire not make this their default mechanic because of this reason and because it dumps effort and responsibility to your plate umpire.

OP said it was a short ground ball, not a fly ball...

Yep, missed the word "ground". That being the case, I see absolutely no reason the BU cannot get inside, unless Steve has broken his leg :D .

To right field, maybe, but not toward right center field.

I also lost this en route to my reply.

What exactly is a short ground ball?

I am sorry... I've just realized in the OP I wrote "centerfield" instead of "outfield"...!
That created a lot of confusion in this thread!!!

BTW by a "short ground ball" I meant a hit that could cause a play on BR at first.

My english is poor. But still better than your italian... :D

Ciao

I have been using the Foul Territory technique since I discovered it a few years ago. IMO, it is simply smart umpiring.

On a ground ball between F3 and F4 you don't know if it will be fielded, by whom, and who is covering first. Whatever, you are liable to be in the way.

On a shot through the infield or over the infield you don't know if F9 is close or fast or has a powerfull arm and will attempt that play at first. I don't have to prove my masculinity by trying to get fully inside, making the pivot, and seeing the full play at 1B. As an umpire, my primary requirement is to be in position to make a quality call.

It only takes a few steps to be in position in foul territory, well ahead of the developing play, with a great angle on the play. If the coach is in the way either he is way out of the box, or you are not in the right position.

Sure you are taken out of the play if the ball gets past F3. But what is the difference when covering R1 into 2B on a stolen base attempt and the ball gets through into CF. R1 is up and off for 3B; are you going to chase her?

My partner knows if he sees me go to foul territory that he has to get to the pitching circle in case the runner continues. My partner knows that he has to get to 3B if the stolen base attempt blows up. Both mechanics insure that an umpire has a good position on the initial play, and that partner has good position on a suceeding play.

Having said all that, I admit that I am too old and slow to keep up with these kids. I have learned how to take shortcuts to assure that I am always in a good calling position.

WMB

Obviously, you hesitate on a ball that may develop into a play at first.

A ball to RC is most likely out of the range, and thought, of F3. On a ball to F4, the BU should have already begun to move into fair territory even before the fielder approaches the ball. If the ball goes through, it is only a few more steps into position.

The idea of the 2-umpire mechanics is to place the umpires in a desired position to cover all possibilities, not just the obvious plays. In a perfect world, foul ground is not a terribly bad place to be, but we all know that occasionally have to work with Ol' Smitty on the plate or a rookie who still hasn't overcome their fascination with a shiny, new indicator.

I've used foul ground, even in the adult game. However, I move into the coach's box. The second I see the possibility of a play disappear or an errant throw is made that will permit the runner to advance, I quickly move inside after the runner, and ball, passes.

BTW, this has nothing to do with masculinity, but umpiring and applies to umpires of all ages and gender.

Forse appena un piccolo.