Interesting thought!

Skahtboi · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Oct 22, 2001, 08:24pm

Saturday, I came upon an interesting dilemma that I thought I would share with you guys to see what kind of input I get. On the fields where I am calling fall ball, they have an "unwritten" rule or policy where they want the on deck batter to be in the on deck circle behind the batter. For example, regardless of which dugout is batting, if the batter is right handed, then the on deck batter will be to my left. If the batter is left handed, then the on deck batter will be to my right. Still with me? Here is where the situation that could have happened, but didn't comes in. The on deck batter takes her place in the batter's box, discarding the bat she had in the on deck circle for the one that the previous batter was using. No one has come out of the offensive dugout to take her place in the on deck circle. Seeing a bat lying on the ground, I call over to the defensive coach and ask him to put it in his dugout, since it is the nearest one. He comes over and gets it, and I holler a quick thanks and proceed with the at bat. The batter hits the first pitch to shallow center and an errant throw from F8 allows her to take second. About this time I notice the bat that the defensive coach had retrieved for me leaning against the fence, on the OUTSIDE of the dugout. Now...here comes the question. What would have happened if the thrown ball had come into contact with the bat and become blocked. Do I still treat this as an offensive interference, even though I had asked the defensive coach to park that bat in his dugout? Interesting dilemma that I am glad I didn't have to face that day. So....I am ready to hear any and all opinions!

Scott

Steve M · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Oct 22, 2001, 09:20pm

I'm open to a formal ruling or interp that Mike might know, but until then I see that bat as belonging to the defensve team. You, as PU, told the defensive coach to remove the bat. The defense is now responsible for that bat being on the playing field and responsible for any blocked ball type of situation that it causes. As I see this situation, the offense was responsible for the bat UNTIL you gave the defense's coach the command and responsibility to remove the bat.

IRISHMAFIA · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 23, 2001, 06:28am

Speaking ASA

Since this is an "unwritten" rule, maybe you should start inforcing the written rules for your own protection. Stupid on-deck rule is what puts you in this situation.

Since the defense recovered the bat and failed to remove it from playable territory, I would have to rule a blocked ball, but that does not mean I'm automatically moving runners up two bases from the throw.

bluezebra · #4 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 23, 2001, 02:29pm

What is the rationale, if there is any, behind this dumb "unwritten" rule?

Bob

Dakota · #5 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 23, 2001, 02:41pm

Since you directed the defense to remove the bat, it became their responsibility regarding any possible blocked ball (IMO).

I would point out, however, that if you were using ASA rules, the written ASA rule (7-1B) says the on-deck batter is to be in the circle nearest the offensive team's bench.

Bandit · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 23, 2001, 04:11pm

bluezebra: I'm going to guess that someone has come up with this "rule" as a so called safety feature. If the batter were to foul off a pitch it has more chance of going towards the ondeck cicle facing the batter. The batter may be "late" in swinging but he or she will never be so "early" that they will wrap the ball around to the circle behind the batter. I had a coach of a team that went to a tournament in FL call and ask me about ASA ruling on this very subject because the tournament allowed the ondeck batter to decide which circle she wanted to be using. I also referred the coach to the ruling Dakota mentions.

Dakota · #7 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 23, 2001, 04:27pm

Scott,

Is the area between the foul lines and the fence unusually small at this field?

Have they had accidents in the past with the ODB getting injured by a foul ball?

If so, that may explain the rule.

Skahtboi · #8 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 23, 2001, 04:29pm

The "unwritten" rule is exactly for the reasons that Bandit illuminated. It is a safety measure of this particular complex, where they feel that the batter is more likely to be late than to be early, and will, therefore, be more likely to hit a hot shot foul in the direction that they are facing. Like many areas, fastpitch fall ball here is a focus on skills and drills, and as a result uses an amalgam of rules.

As I thought about it last weekend, I decided that I would have to treat the bat as part of the defensive equipment in the event that the ball became blocked, and therefore rule accordingly. I just thought that it would make for a topic of interesting discussion here. Any other opinions???

Skahtboi · #9 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 23, 2001, 04:36pm

Dakota:

Let me put it this way, I have seen many more generous foul territories at other complexes. However, these are not too unusually shallow either. I would say they are about 5-7 feet to the fence.

As far as accidents go, I am aware of none at this complex, though that doesn't mean that they didn't happen prior to my working with this group. Like many of you, I call at many different complexes, but I have been working with this one for about 7 years now. However, year round this complex does enforce this particular rule where girl's fastpitch is concerned, whether it be Dixie or ASA, with the sole exception of when high schools play there. Then we go by Fed rules to the letter.

whiskers_ump · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 23, 2001, 07:07pm

AFA has used it for years. This is probably where most
of this is coming from. Bandit is correct, "they call
it a safety thing" and for reasons he stated. Most of
the teams playing ASA play AFA also. AFA is growing.
It is not however, a written rule. I cannot find it in
rule book. But it is always discussed at the pre game
coference and handouts to coaches with any other changes
for tournament taking place.

Have never had the situtation happen that Scott described,
but agree with all that it now the defense teams job to
properly secure the bat.

AFA adpoted the NCAA rule book and they certainly do not
require on-deck batter to be behind batter.

glen

Dakota · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 24, 2001, 08:57am

Being an engineer by profession, I get really annoyed (more than I should) when someone tries to fix something that isn't broken - "feel good rules" - this seems like that to me.

Do any of these organizations (local towns or the AFA or others) have any data so show there is a real safety problem being addressed? How many players, for example, have gotten hurt by errant foul balls hitting them while in the ODB circle?

If the concern is adult ball, how many fights, ejections, etc., does this rule lead to when the ODB finally gets fed up with the "encouragement" coming from the opposition bench? Does anyone know if this "safety rule" is actually making things better or worse?

What happens with a switch hitter? Do you have to suspend play to allow the ODB to change circles?

Skahtboi · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 24, 2001, 04:39pm

Oddly, the same group that runs this complex, runs another complex as well. These are the fields where all the adult leagues play, and they have ample foul areas (10-12 ft.) and do not require on deck batters to leave the relative safety and comfort of their dugout areas to go on deck.

The other fields that I am talking about are strictly where the kids play, and as I have noted, the ODB is required to use the circle behind the batter, regardless of the situation such as a switch hitter...etc. The only exception to this, as I noted previously, is when the local high schools play here. They do not have the same requirements for them.

As far as if there have been any studies done to show that this step actually reduces injury, I am not sure. Honestly, I think that it is really a PR move....looks good to the parents that their child is so obviously well looked after when they are at the ball fields. Just a hunch....

There, does that have the engineering part of your brain going into convulsions???

whiskers_ump · #13 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 24, 2001, 06:43pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dakota
[B]Being an engineer by profession, I get really annoyed (more than I should) when someone tries to fix something that isn't broken - "feel good rules" - this seems like that to me.

Do any of these organizations (local towns or the AFA or others) have any data so show there is a real safety problem being addressed? How many players, for example, have gotten hurt by errant foul balls hitting them while in the ODB circle?

None that I have ever found in AFA.

Have never seen or heard of any reports being
kept on this.

If the concern is adult ball, how many fights, ejections, etc., does this rule lead to when the ODB finally gets fed up with the "encouragement" coming from the opposition bench? Does anyone know if this "safety rule" is actually making things better or worse?

AFA only deals with Youth fast pitch.

What happens with a switch hitter? Do you have to suspend play to allow the ODB to change circles?

Yes, if batters switches sides after taking a pitch
or two from one side or the other, then play is suspended
while ODB switches..

glen

[Edited by whiskers_ump on Oct 24th, 2001 at 06:50 PM]