rusty

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Bonds and his ilk do not deserve HOF entry, IMO.

In my personal opinion, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

However, there is no ignoring the fact that MLB offcially turned a blind eye to performance enhancers for many, many years, thereby legitimizing, at least in the players minds, the use of such products. Therefore, the argument can be put forth by anyone desiring to play DA, that the achievements of these players should merit their induction.

It is not a hard and fast, black and white issue like that which faced the Black Sox, William Cox, or Pete Rose. (Well...since 2002 it has been, but not before.)

Even Tris Speaker and Ty Cobb were suspected of possible game fixing and gambling, though nothing was ever proved in their case. Had it been and you can rest assured that the original class inducted into the HOF would have looked somewhat different.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Until lawyers and players found they could find judges who were willing to stick their noses where they didn't belong, baseball was operated as a private entity/business with employees. Until the Curt Flood case, the only time the government and baseball got together was to set and monitor the anti-trust exemption (which if MLB was smart, should have been dumped a long time ago). Do not confuse that statement with saying there were no legal or criminal matters to address, because obviously there were.

And as far as the drug issue, you cannot completely blame MLB. The owners had actually voiced opinions against their use for years, but it was the player's union which made the point a labor issue and we all know that EVERYTHING barring a violation of law, is negotiable.

Personally, I would love to see MLB go under. If there is anyone in this country that cannot live without MLB, they are the ones who need to be in a hospital/rehab facility. I know there are others who are equally tired of hearing the owners and players whine and cry about everything including not making enough money and want more while the overall skill level of the players decline.

Almost like dealing with SP players.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

...Personally, I would love to see MLB go under. ... I know there are others who are equally tired of hearing the owners and players whine and cry about everything including not making enough money and want more while the overall skill level of the players decline.

Almost like dealing with SP players.

So, by extension, you would like to see slow pitch go under, too?

"Overall skill levels" declining? Depends on what you mean by "overall". Certainly, with the large number of teams, the average MLB player is less skilled than the average player would be with fewer teams, but, the top players are just as highly skilled as the top players were decades ago.

My objection to the steriods is not legal; it is more that they are a violation of the game. Let me explain. Baseball, whether accidentally or by brilliant design, is probably the most well-balanced game ever invented. The balance between offense and defense, the layout of the infield relative to human athletic ability, etc., means that it may well be the only sport where statistics can be meaningfully compared across the decades. Steriods disrupted the balance especially in the home run statistics. None of the home run records from the McGuire / Sosa season forward can be put in the same record book as those from Maris / Aaron backward.

While it is true that the final roadblock to incorporating any drug testing into MLB was the players, certainly management was keen to turn a blind eye while the McGuire / Sosa race restored interest in the game.

Some baseball commentators have stated that just as there is a "modern" era in baseball records (when the more lively ball was introduced), there will now be a drug-enhanced era to divide the record books. That may end up being the way it is dealt with, but if I had my way, the record books on power hitting would be expunged from ~1997 through to ~2005, including single season records and career record contributions during that time. IOW, the Bonds ilk would have forfeited their accomplishements' official recognition by using the drugs, legal or not, banned or not.