tag on batter/runner
 

Had a game last night in which I was the BU. Batter/runner in the 3' running lane and fielder fielded the ball and made what I thought looked like a tag even though the tag was made on the foul side of the batter/runner. I called her out. Then after the play was done I went and conferred with the PU if he had seen anything different. He stated that he didn't see anything because he was watching the girl from third touch home, so I stayed with my out call. Is that proper mechanics to go to my partner after I called her out or not? My thinking later made me wonder. If I called her out, I must have seen something that made me think she was out, similiar to if I am PU and I say the batter offered at a pitch and call a strike, I don't then go to the BU and ask if she went. How should this be handled? Dave

Dave, If you are 100% sure you saw an out in the running lane by all means call the out and make sure you sell it. It's obvious your partner wasn't quite doing his/her job because they they also have a responsibility on that batter-runner running in the shute, yes they must make sure of the touch at the plate, but there is more responsibility to look after.
If the coach comes to you and asks politely for you to check with your partner thinking maybe he/she had a better angle then by all means go ahead and check ( if you want) but make sure that they are 150% sure that there was no tag before you change your call.
Yes if you call a strike you don't check to see if it was a swing after the fact.

Remember that we don't guess outs. If you saw something that made you think it was an out, call it; but don't then suggest you were guessing by asking for help without being challenged. If asked by the offense, by all means ask; but not on your own after calling the out.

If you are so unsure you plan to ask for help, you need to call "safe"; then ask for help. You guess safe, not out. If you call out, stay with it unless asked to go for help from the other angle.

Sounds like the offensive coach didnt complain about the out call. If you went to PU right after to ask an opinion, you are opening a can of worms. Everyone at that game now thinks you arent sure, and your next call might be interesting...
Wait under after the game, or in later innings to talk w/PU about what they saw...

Rule of thumb, never guess an out. If you saw it, call it. No need for any more input from anyone else. If you didn't actually see the tag, then "safe" should have been the call, and then you can always get additional info from your partner if requested.

Couldn't agree more with my fellow Umpires. Never 2nd guess yourself unless your asked (and nicely too) by a coach. Otherwise your authority will be 2nd guest all game and future games as well.

Did I physically see the fielder's glove make contact with the runner? No I didn't because the tag was away from me and I was shielded from the play. The play happened so fast I couldn't get a better angle although I am not sure where I could have went to get a better look even if I would have had time. The proximity of the runner and the fielder and the glove going out to make the tag or tag attempt made me believe there was a tag. I am sure some of you have been the PU before and thought maybe the batter got hit by a pitch but didn't actually see or hear it hit her but know where the ball was heading and used her reaction to getting hit to determine if she did in fact get hit. Dave

I'd say if you didn't actually see a tag you'd have to call safe. Anything else would be speculation. We have to call what we see - even on a HBP. If I don't see it hit them, I don't award them first. If the offense questions that, I'll check with my partner. I call what I see not what I think I saw.

In a situation like this, I let the runner help me make the call. 99% of the time, you can tell by body language if the tag is made. If the tag isn't made, the offended player will most certainly let you know about it. :eek:

Thanks, NDblue. That's is exactly what I was talking about. My only question was if I saw something other than an actual tag that made me think there was a tag, and I called her out, and the coach came out and asked me if I would ask my partner, should I since I already called her out? Dave

If you had any inkling that your partner may have more information to add, absolutely.

Mike, if you had already called her out, you would go to your partner without any prompting from the coaches?

No, but the post to which I was responding specifically stated that the coach asked Shipwreck to go for help.

Assume you are the BU not 100% sure of the tag, but if you had to make the call, you would call the out. You glance at your partner and it appears that he has a good look at the play. What is the best way to handle this?

a) Make the call (OUT). If the coach requests, you go to your parter for help.
b) Make the call (SAFE), and then check with your partner on your own.
c) Point to your partner (giving up the call).

How about d) Make the call (SAFE). If the coach requests, you go to your partner for help. Dave

My answer is a variation of B.

I'm not going to do anything on the tag/no tag. I will let the play finish, then go to my partner with the question - DID YOU SEE A TAG? My call will be made as a result of the answer.

I will also watch the succeeding actions of the BR and/or fielder. If the BR gives up running and starts for the dugout, I'm calling the out. If the fielder reaches for the tag, then turns and throws the ball to first, I will make the call based on what happens at first base.

Unless you are sure you saw an actual tag, the runner is safe; until your partner convinces you otherwise or it's raining in the seventh inning of a blowout. ;)

About this issue I agree with those who say 'call SAFE and - if requested - go for help to your partner'.
BTW in a game I saw 1 month ago a very difficult situation occurred:
Bottom of VII
Home team down by only a run (can't remember... something like 2-3 or so)
Runner on 3rd
Two outs
BU is of course positioned behind 2-3 line
Batter hits a gounder to SS and the subsequent throw was not perfect
1st baseman had to move a little in the direction of home
There was a swipe tag (very very fast and with BR very close to 1st base)

BU called SAFE (because NOT sure about the tag and used also the pointing to say BR was safe because of pulled foot)

Now defensive coach asked TIME and go to BU, saying BR was out because of the tag and asking him to go for help to his partner

Two umpires had a little talk and PU convinced BU the tag was real and effectively BR was out...
'Have the right call' was the filosophy of BU... game end.

They needed an escort to reach dressing rooms... :(

Ciao

P.S. Sometimes I hate two-umpire-system... because of this kind of problems!!! :mad:

I forgot to ask: if you were PU... did you say something BEFORE BU calls this?

Grazie e ciao

Game played in Rome? ;)
No. Wait for your partner to ask.

I agree that this call has its problems with the 2 man system, but the request from the defensive coach and the umpire conference are all a normal part of it, too. Sounds like some fans / players need to get a grip.

Yeah! How did you get it? :D
In Italy we often use roman numbers when it need to say 2nd, 3rd, etc. And I must admit I prefer to say I was born in MCMLXVI, instead to say... :rolleyes:

Dakota, how would YOU handle this kind of situation?
If you were BU... do you really go and CHANGE your call on this specific sitch?
Imagine all fans were cheering beacause the run that re-opened the game was just scored...
:confused:

Ciao

1966? Aw...you're still a young pup..

Just a wild guess! :D Yes, I would. The way it was handled was OK, but there is another way. If the BU saw the possible swipe tag, but was just unsure if it was made, then before making the call, he can look at his partner, and if he seems to have a good look at the swipe, point to him and say "TAG?" Depending on his response, BU goes with either "PULLED FOOT - NO TAG - SAFE" or "TAG - OUT".

That's great. THANK YOU!

Ciao e grazie ancora!

Mike, I think you have stolen my filter - I don't read it that way.

Really? Here is an excerpt from the post to which I responded.

How else can you read it?

OK Mike, on my screen this is labled as #1 - I do not even see the word "coach" in this post. Was the original post in another thread?

Larry, refer to post #10. I wrote post #1 and #10. I am sure Mike is quoting #10. Dave

Correct.

That is why a poster should cite to which s/he is responding, which is exactly what I did.

I stand corrected. Allow me to offer my most humble of aplogies to Mike!

THERE WE GO! I Wholeheartedly agree with Andy... why? Because that's exactly what I do whenever I'm in the situation. There are a ton of times that a tag is made when we cannot judge a tag in the chute... that's why we have two of us guys in blue shirts (etc. etc. etc.) out there. Our buddy behind the dish is looking up the line FOR THAT REASON. So, treat it the same as a pulled foot... if you're not sure that the foot stayed on the bag, point, ask the question, and get the answer.

Lee