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-   -   too late to call infield fly? (https://forum.officiating.com/softball/27938-too-late-call-infield-fly.html)

bigsig Wed Aug 23, 2006 06:01pm
ASA Rule is that infield fly is in effect even if not declared by umps. Players and coaches have responsibility to know the rules and the situation.

CecilOne Wed Aug 23, 2006 06:46pm
"If you don't call/enforce the IF, you are putting the defense at a disadvantage."

or offense?

WestMichBlue Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Robertson
The infield fly rule is designed to protect the offensive from a cheap double play (or even a cheap triple play). In this scenario, it has benefitted the defensive team because of the late call.

Call me silly, but I'd say that is unfair.
I am not going to call you silly - in fact I may be the only umpire here that agrees with you. (At least in ASA play.)

ASA expects it's umpires to call the IF; if they don't they may be placing the runners in jepordy. Rule 1 Infield Fly states that "the umpire shall immediately declare infield fly. . . . . . ." It doesn't say "may" or "could" or "should'a" - it says shall.

So if the umpire fails to call a the IF, and if runners assume they have to advance, and get tagged out, then the umpire should call the batter out, and return the runners that he put in jepordy by failing to call the IF.

NFHS specifically states that the batter is out whether the IF is called or not. Still, failure to make the call could put runners in jepordy and I would be inclined to follow the ASA position and return any runners tagged out.

WMB

Oh, BTW - before any ASA umpires hurt their fingers pounding on the keyboard to refute my statement, please read your casebook (8.2.35).

pbrooksmac Thu Aug 24, 2006 12:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottk_61
Agreed, but from the way the play is described I can't imagine it not being playable.
Playable is one thing...lots of balls are playable. Playable with ORDINARY EFFORT is an entirely different thing. ASA standard is playable with ordinary effort. If a ball is blowing back and forth, I don't think that would qualify. Either way, ASA leaves "ordinary effort" up to umpires discretion.

The last thing on the mind of the defense in this case is trying to get a cheap double play...chances are they're just trying make sure they catch the ball.

John Robertson Thu Aug 24, 2006 12:10am
Okay, so I'm not so silly after all!

Dakota Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:34am
I do not agree with those who take the position that the runners are responsibile for knowing the game situation and therefore treat an uncalled IF as if it were a called IF. That makes no sense to me (as WMB says, at least in ASA - but I would state it more to my point - at least under any rules that allow the IF to be called after-the-fact, as ASA does).

Do not forget... there are two component to the IF:

1) The game situation (force at 3rd, less than 2 outs), and

2) A fly ball that in the umpire's judgment can be caught with ordinary effort by an infielder.

The runners cannot get inside the umpire's head, nor can they substitute their own judgment for his. If the IF is not called, their only choice is to advance, because they are now forced to advance.

If the IF is called after-the-fact, rule 10-6-C (ASA) provides the umpire with the responsibility for fixing the fact that his delayed call placed the runners in jeopardy by forcing them to run.

Assuming the judgment was correct in the OP situation (ordinary effort and all that), the actions by the umpires was correct (assuming ASA).

Mountaineer Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota
I do not agree with those who take the position that the runners are responsibile for knowing the game situation and therefore treat an uncalled IF as if it were a called IF. That makes no sense to me (as WMB says, at least in ASA - but I would state it more to my point - at least under any rules that allow the IF to be called after-the-fact, as ASA does).

Do not forget... there are two component to the IF:

1) The game situation (force at 3rd, less than 2 outs), and

2) A fly ball that in the umpire's judgment can be caught with ordinary effort by an infielder.

The runners cannot get inside the umpire's head, nor can they substitute their own judgment for his. If the IF is not called, their only choice is to advance, because they are now forced to advance.

If the IF is called after-the-fact, rule 10-6-C (ASA) provides the umpire with the responsibility for fixing the fact that his delayed call placed the runners in jeopardy by forcing them to run.

Assuming the judgment was correct in the OP situation (ordinary effort and all that), the actions by the umpires was correct (assuming ASA).
I honestly am asking for clarification on this, Tom. Are you saying that you wouldn't enforce an IFR AFTER the play was over? Is that the proper way in ASA? I know in Fed. there is an undeclared IF. I don't particularly like it but it gives an umpire a way to correct a mistake.

Dakota Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:49am
No, I am saying I would (in addition to enforcing the IF) correct the jeopardy I placed the runners in with the late call. That is, return runners who attempted to advanced under the forced to advance situation and were tagged out.

Obviously, force outs no longer stand (since the IF removed the force).

These situations are HTBT, but in general, the "needs to know the situation" principle only applies up to when umpire judgment comes in. At that point, there is no "situation" to know.

gsf23 Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota
These situations are HTBT, but in general, the "needs to know the situation" principle only applies up to when umpire judgment comes in. At that point, there is no "situation" to know.
That is how I have always felt about this as well. Yeah, the runner is supposed to know the situation, but how is the runner supposed to know why the umpire didn't make the infield fly call? Did he just forget? Did he not recognize the situation? Did he determine the ball wasn't catchable with ordinary effort? How is the runner supposed to know this?

Why the infield fly is not being called would be the determining factor for the runner on whether they should take off or not. So, if the runner does not know why the IFF was not called, how can he/she be expected to know whether they should be running or not?

Mountaineer Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota
No, I am saying I would (in addition to enforcing the IF) correct the jeopardy I placed the runners in with the late call. That is, return runners who attempted to advanced under the forced to advance situation and were tagged out.

Obviously, force outs no longer stand (since the IF removed the force).

These situations are HTBT, but in general, the "needs to know the situation" principle only applies up to when umpire judgment comes in. At that point, there is no "situation" to know.
I agree, if my call (or lack of) placed runner in jeopardy, I would correct that. You would have to.

archangel Fri Aug 25, 2006 06:56pm
I agree with John. It didnt land in front of F6 like Scott claims, the OP says "near" F6. Define "near" in this sitch that wasnt full of details--did it land close to, but behind F6?.
True, the IF doesnt have to be called to be in effect, but I will judge, after the fact, whether it is one - based on "ordinary effort" which factors in weather conditions, wind, rain, ect.

whiskers_ump Fri Aug 25, 2006 07:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Robertson
Hypothetical situation:

Bases loaded with none out. Batter hits a high fly ball that appears to be headed for the outfield. Suddenly a gust of wind blows it back into the infield. The umpires don't react quickly and the ball lands near the shortstop. The shortstop picks up the ball and starts a home-to-third double play. The offensive team complains that this should have been called an infield fly.

Can the umpires call "infield fly" after the fact (declaring the batter out and returning the runners to their bases)?
Wind is the one thing that can be a factor on whether or not to call IFR....

Igotthetag Fri Aug 25, 2006 09:35pm
Infield Fly
 
I have been lurking and watching for a while. I am really moved to ask those of you who have said that if you made the call late and runners were put out subsequent to having been placed in jeopardy by your "mistake", that you would try to make them whole and return them to the base they left. In that same situation, had the runners made it to the next base without being put out, would you also return them to their previous bases respectively. I don't think so, therefore, you can't undo the out, legitimately. (IMHO)

Please help me to understand the difference.

Duane

Mountaineer Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Igotthetag
I have been lurking and watching for a while. I am really moved to ask those of you who have said that if you made the call late and runners were put out subsequent to having been placed in jeopardy by your "mistake", that you would try to make them whole and return them to the base they left. In that same situation, had the runners made it to the next base without being put out, would you also return them to their previous bases respectively. I don't think so, therefore, you can't undo the out, legitimately. (IMHO)

Please help me to understand the difference.

Duane
No reason to be moved - it's in the rulebook. If your wrong call or mishandled call puts a player in jeopardy, the umpire has the responsiblity to fix the problem. Runners that made it to the next base were not jeopardized - therefore their advance would remain.


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