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too late to call infield fly?
Hypothetical situation:
Bases loaded with none out. Batter hits a high fly ball that appears to be headed for the outfield. Suddenly a gust of wind blows it back into the infield. The umpires don't react quickly and the ball lands near the shortstop. The shortstop picks up the ball and starts a home-to-third double play. The offensive team complains that this should have been called an infield fly. Can the umpires call "infield fly" after the fact (declaring the batter out and returning the runners to their bases)? |
An infield fly can only apply when there are less than two outs (none or one) AND 1st and 2nd or 1st 2nd and 3rd are occupied.
Your sitch give us that. However, the players are responsible for knowing the rules as well as you. The infield fly happens whether you call it or not, you do have to enforce it. You should have had batter out on the IF and every other runner can advance AT THEIR OWN RISK. If they got put out on a tag, they are out, no tag=no out. Yes, it is never too late to enforce the IF but that doesn't require the other runners to be returned to their bases. Get in your rule book and read the sections one at a time until you learn them so as to not get taken in by goofy player/coach myths. |
Read the OP. He said bases loaded and none out. Dave
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So I fixed it, sorry for any confusion. |
My concern with applying the infield fly rule "after the fact" is that the baserunners may have tried to advance thinking they had to because the infield fly rule was not called while the ball was in the air. It seems a little unfair if any of them were tagged out because they thought they had to run instead of running at their own risk.
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As Scott said, they are equally responsible for knowing the situation and have base coaches to, well, coach them.
However, in NCAA, if infield fly is not called, it was not in effect, therefor, the batter is not out. |
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Would you have allowed a run to score if a runner had crossed the plate when the IF wasn't called? Now where if the fairness. Answer this, what is the purpose and intent of the rule? If you can understand the purpose/intent of a rule then you can apply it correctly. This applies to all rules and all codes. Purpose and intent = a correct enforcement of any rule. |
Why would you enforce this rule if this ball suddenly blew back? That does not make much sense.
In order to CALL the infield fly rule, you must also have ordinary effort. If the ball falls in, how is that ordinary effort? The goal here is to not give an easy double play, not give an out to the defense cause the offense popped the ball up. I say NO infield fly and if you dont call it at first, forget it and move on with life. All this talk about it calling itself is true, I guess, but also very unpractical and hard to talk yourself out of. Orangey |
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This is not a rare occurence, unusual-yes. In the original sitch, it landed right in front of the F6, I don't see how it couldn't have been caught with ordinary effort. Way back, when I was doing spring training in baseball we even had this same type of situation occur. The rule is the same for baseball and softball here. I have seen the ball blown back in from foul territory, I mean way foul, over the stands foul but you still have to call it. If you don't call/enforce the IF, you are putting the defense at a disadvantage. Enforce the rules evenly and fairly, that is our job. |
Let's not lose sight of the fact that, in your judgment, the ball had to be playable with ordinary effort by an infielder. If the wind was that bad, it may be possible that nothing may have been playable with ordinary effort.
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but then again, I have been wrong a couple of time in my life. Usually it was when I thought I had made a mistake...........:D |
What is the phobia these people have against posting ALL the info? How high was the ball when it was blown back?
Bob |
In reply to Scottk 61, here's where I think some unfairness could arise:
Suppose you are the runner on third base in this situation. You are mindful that an infield fly might be called--but also that it might not be called. The ball lands fair near the shortstop. No infield fly call is made. You logically think, "This is now a force play; I have to run." The shortstop throws the ball to the catcher who chooses to apply a tag. You are out. When the play is stopped, the umpires then decide that it really was an infield fly situation and call it after the fact. The batter is out--and you are out too because you were tagged out since the infield fly call meant you ran at your own risk. Double play. Ouch! The infield fly rule is designed to protect the offensive from a cheap double play (or even a cheap triple play). In this scenario, it has benefitted the defensive team because of the late call. Call me silly, but I'd say that is unfair. |
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"Rules is Rules" but you enforce them as you see fit. |
Okay, I'm silly.
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ASA Rule is that infield fly is in effect even if not declared by umps. Players and coaches have responsibility to know the rules and the situation.
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"If you don't call/enforce the IF, you are putting the defense at a disadvantage."
or offense? |
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ASA expects it's umpires to call the IF; if they don't they may be placing the runners in jepordy. Rule 1 Infield Fly states that "the umpire shall immediately declare infield fly. . . . . . ." It doesn't say "may" or "could" or "should'a" - it says shall. So if the umpire fails to call a the IF, and if runners assume they have to advance, and get tagged out, then the umpire should call the batter out, and return the runners that he put in jepordy by failing to call the IF. NFHS specifically states that the batter is out whether the IF is called or not. Still, failure to make the call could put runners in jepordy and I would be inclined to follow the ASA position and return any runners tagged out. WMB Oh, BTW - before any ASA umpires hurt their fingers pounding on the keyboard to refute my statement, please read your casebook (8.2.35). |
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The last thing on the mind of the defense in this case is trying to get a cheap double play...chances are they're just trying make sure they catch the ball. |
Okay, so I'm not so silly after all!
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I do not agree with those who take the position that the runners are responsibile for knowing the game situation and therefore treat an uncalled IF as if it were a called IF. That makes no sense to me (as WMB says, at least in ASA - but I would state it more to my point - at least under any rules that allow the IF to be called after-the-fact, as ASA does).
Do not forget... there are two component to the IF: 1) The game situation (force at 3rd, less than 2 outs), and 2) A fly ball that in the umpire's judgment can be caught with ordinary effort by an infielder. The runners cannot get inside the umpire's head, nor can they substitute their own judgment for his. If the IF is not called, their only choice is to advance, because they are now forced to advance. If the IF is called after-the-fact, rule 10-6-C (ASA) provides the umpire with the responsibility for fixing the fact that his delayed call placed the runners in jeopardy by forcing them to run. Assuming the judgment was correct in the OP situation (ordinary effort and all that), the actions by the umpires was correct (assuming ASA). |
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No, I am saying I would (in addition to enforcing the IF) correct the jeopardy I placed the runners in with the late call. That is, return runners who attempted to advanced under the forced to advance situation and were tagged out.
Obviously, force outs no longer stand (since the IF removed the force). These situations are HTBT, but in general, the "needs to know the situation" principle only applies up to when umpire judgment comes in. At that point, there is no "situation" to know. |
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Why the infield fly is not being called would be the determining factor for the runner on whether they should take off or not. So, if the runner does not know why the IFF was not called, how can he/she be expected to know whether they should be running or not? |
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I agree with John. It didnt land in front of F6 like Scott claims, the OP says "near" F6. Define "near" in this sitch that wasnt full of details--did it land close to, but behind F6?.
True, the IF doesnt have to be called to be in effect, but I will judge, after the fact, whether it is one - based on "ordinary effort" which factors in weather conditions, wind, rain, ect. |
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Infield Fly
I have been lurking and watching for a while. I am really moved to ask those of you who have said that if you made the call late and runners were put out subsequent to having been placed in jeopardy by your "mistake", that you would try to make them whole and return them to the base they left. In that same situation, had the runners made it to the next base without being put out, would you also return them to their previous bases respectively. I don't think so, therefore, you can't undo the out, legitimately. (IMHO)
Please help me to understand the difference. Duane |
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