Should conceding defeat be allowed?
 

I was working a youth tournament yesterday in which there was a six-run maximum per inning. One game was a total mismatch. After three innings, the home team was up 18-0. The mercy rule (of 15 runs) would not come into effect until five innings had been played. Before the top of the fourth inning, my partner had a talk with the coach of the team getting shellacked. The coach agreed to "concede defeat" after they had their turn at bat in the top of the fourth. (They didn't score in that inning, either.)

Where I live (Ontario) there is no provision for a team to "throw in the towel" without it being deemed a forfeit. Therefore, what happened wasn't entirely kosher. However, nobody wanted to see this route continue, and runs for and against made no difference in the tournament format.

I think it would be a good idea to allow teams to concede defeat when they are hopelessly behind and outclassed--sort of like what happens in a one-sided chess match. What does everyone else think?

Just for clarification: "Throwing in the towel" IS a forfeit.

I would NEVER try to get a team to quit. THAT is no more my job than lining the field.

You agreed to do a game with a 6 run per inning and a 15 run mercy after 5 innings. If you talked them into ending it early, you owe someone a refund.

Joe

As an umpire, why would you care if a team chose not to continue a game?

What are you going to do, tell them to "play, or else?" If this was a tournament, it was probably in the best interest of all concerned, including teams waiting to play the next game on that field, to terminate the game an move on with the tournament.

This is not an umpire issue.

Exactly. This is not an umpire issue. So, no umpire should be trying to talk a coach into quitting.

Joe

Never QUIT! Its possible to comback...Heres a story for you...one of my partners told me this...he was behind the plate for a softball game that 56 runs scored total. in the forth inning, home team was down by 19 runs. In the bottom of the 4th, they came back and scored 10 runs, meaning the game would continue, no mercy rule. they went on to win the game in the bottom of the 6th inning. :)

Just to clarify a few things...

I did not talk the team into quitting--my partner did. I had no idea what he was discussing with the coach until he told me what the conversation was about prior to the fourth inning.

Personally, I would not have suggested the idea to the coach either. However, I think it's not an entirely bad rule to institute. A team is getting creamed. They're totally outclassed. Having the option of honorably conceding defeat is not so terrible an idea. Just my opinion, though.

Yes, there have been some miraculous comebacks--but it wasn't going to happen in this game. There is a better chance of a Royals-Pirates World Series this year than the team that was losing 18-0 coming back to win that game. I was there.

I will clarify, as well. I think that a team should quit if they want to. My only beef is with an umpire engaging in ANY type of conversation trying to get a team to quit.

I have no problem with an umpire in passing working the conversation to the winning coach to the point he talks about how bad the game is. I can usually get them to say, "These games aren't any fun to umpire or play."

"Well, coach, you can help determine how long we play. I don't think you'll probably win this game without scoring another run - let me know if you're gonna have players step off or anything. . ."

I'm sure there are some that will have a problem with that - but I don't. I didn't ASK or TELL him to do anything. Instead, I put an idea in his mind that will help the suffering on everyone's part end sooner.

Way out of line. I don't chat it up with the coaches at ALL...ESPECIALLY not a conversation trying to get the coach to quit. You are borrowing trouble.

[QUOTE=John Robertson] Before the top of the fourth inning, my partner had a talk with the coach of the team getting shellacked. The coach agreed to "concede defeat" after they had their turn at bat in the top of the fourth. QUOTE]


If the coach initiated this conversation, or possibly asked "how can we stop it?" or something to that effect, fine---I MIGHT suggest he could always concede (thus forfiet). That would be answering his question.

There shouldn't be an attempt to "coach the coach."

In my area, a HS coach who pulls her/his team off the field, is fired after a hearing.

As for getting clobbered. Back in the mid-80s, the visiting team in a private HS game scored 19 runs in the top of the seventh. Luckily, I didn't have that game.

Bob

One of four NFHS game ending rules, if adopted by State Association, allows the team behind by more than 15 runs to end the game at anytime.

Just because I wear the Blue does not mean that as a human being I lose my feelings of empathy for kids getting whipped. If a game is out of control early, I will manage to discretely let a coach know his legal options for ending a game.

WMB

In a word,

YES.

If a team doesn't want to play the game, or decides they've had enough, then call it a day.

If the loser's bracket team wants to forfeit the championship game because they're tired and have played 8 games that day, then let them. They've earned that right.

Heck, if the Winner's bracket team wants to forfeit a game, let them.

I've been on all three sides of this: winning coach, losing coach, umpire. I didn't like any of the three sides. It wasn't fun to umpire the game. It wasn't fun to beat up on a team (which we didn't once we got the requisite runs ahead). It wasn't fun to get beat on by a team (even if they are calling off the dogs after getting the requisite runs ahead). No one learns from these games.

As a coach, I've always used these games as learning experiences. I asked a team that was thumping my team to bunt, to get caught in rundowns, to get in various situations so my defense could practice it. I've even asked a coach to have her pitcher throw a lot of drop balls so my girls could get used to seeing it. When I've been ahead, I've had my girls bunt, work on slapping, etc., so we can practice. I've let the other coach know that we are going to do it...requested of him to let me know if he wanted us to get in certain situations, etc. I've gotten my #3 and #4 pitcher into game situations...good experience.

But I've also told the umpire we were going to do what we were going to do.

As an umpire, I just bear with it. Eventually a coach (except for about two I know) will get the run rule lead, then have girls leave early, bunt into outs, etc. One area coach, while coaching third, will actually tell us that leaving early is going to happen before he has his girl leave the base.

I have never seen that one in writing. I am in Michigan. Where would that be written?

Do you also tell coaches when their pitchers should throw a change up? Umpires have NO BUSINESS getting involved in this sort of thing.

We had a a 7th/8th grade coach here that did basically the same thing - (in NYS, that level has NO run rule...)he would tell the BU to ring up his kids for leaving early if they tried to steal..or even if they stepped off 1st! - you should have seen the look on a kids face the first time that happened! That program schools it kids AND parents very good in sportsmanship, so the parents are not usually a problem when that happens either. I was BU in one of those games once, and by sheer reflex I actually called his BR safe on a banger at 1B.....very strange to get a negative response from the offensive coach when you call one of his kids SAFE...;)

And I wholeheartedly agree that the kids learn NOTHING from a blowout experience like that - except perhaps NOT to like softball! Lets get the darn game over, and head for the local Mickey Ds....:D

This is an approach with which I do not agree. Not everyone understands this and it can bring an umpires integrity into play. I tell the coach I will call what I see. If it is that obvious, it is just as much a slap in the face to the team getting thumped as the thumping itself.

I suggest to the coach that they have a conversation with the opposing coach and come to a conclusion without the umpire's being placed in the middle.

I should have clarified that this is usually in the fourth inning after a 'gentlemen's agreement' run rule has been agreed to...especially at home...have never seen an opposing coach complain either - he/she is usually just glad to get their kids out of there..and also, I probably overstated his reaction also, at the time it was more of a dirty look...and also FYI, this gentleman (now deceased) was a fully certified and qualified ASA/NYS umpire.

You TOTALLY misread then - you might want to reread. I have no problem with talking to coaches. In my experience, it's the opposite that gets you into trouble. Of course there are times when you stay the hell away - but talking between innings is not a problem for me.

I think you are very wrong here. I would never tell a coach to quit - never. My post was in talking to the WINNING coach. I agree with one of the other posts - I'm also a compassionate person and feel empathy for the other team. I have told coaches in basketball - without hesitation - when they are continuing to press, and beating a team's brains out "Back 'em up coach" If they don't I start calling the ticky-tack stuff to back them up. There's no sense in humiliating a team. If you think that's wrong - don't have me scheduled for any of your games.

In 16 years, I have seen the chatting cause some problems.

I cannot fathom any circumstance where just umpiing the game without chatting could possibly cause you a problem.

Tring to convince a coach to quit? Do you actually not see the myriad of potential problems here?

That's sort of what I'm referring to - except they have to step off. I won't call them out for leaving early if they don't leave early. But usually the coach is instructing them to step off to get the out. I have no problem with that.

Hopefully you are not a MHSAA registered official; otherwise you have no excuse for making that statement. Read your Officials Guide.

Don't get all bent out of shape, Washburn. All we are talking about are RULES - which I get from reading my Officials Guide. I used the word "descretely" in my post to describe my actions in letting the losing coach know what his legal options are.

WMB

Here in AZ, we do not have time limits on any HS game at any level. We play seven innings. The only game ending rule we have adopted is the 10 runs ahead after 5 innings.

We have some FR and JV coaches that only want to play for a certain time, say 1:30. When they approach the umpire with this request, we have asked our umpires to reply:

Coach, I cannot legally agree to a time limit, but if your team refuses to take the field at any time, I can't force you to do so.....

How the game gets scored is not my concern.

WMB, I had never noticed that one before-thanks for pointing it ot to me.

Page 51. However, that option is in effect ONLY IF: (Schools, leagues or invitational tournament management shall determine which are to be utilized with prior mutual written consent) I do not know of any schools around here that have done this. I will check with my assignor, though.

Thanks,

Joe

If you are truly working the levels you quote, I'm amazed you got there. Chatting up with coaches between innings is hard to do from right field, which is where you should be between innings (unless you're U3 - where left field or even center is where you should be). I caught the riot act from an evaluator early in my career for merely being on the 3BL when I should have been in the outfield between innings (as U3).

You base my ability to umpire on this forum? You are a funny man! If you are THAT good, you should be able to predict the outcome of a game without a pitch being thrown. For your information, our conference wants the umpires to come down toward the plate instead of in the outfield - glad I don't have your evaluator . . . and since she is also our HS clinician - we do the same there. Guess that makes me available to the coaches.

I hate that mechanic and have absolutely no problem with umpires occupying the base line between innings. For that matter, I prefer partners be in a position to speak to each other during the game instead of conspicuously standing out in the grass of the outfield.

I consider the reason given for the change to be weak and a sorry excuse for changing a positive mechanic.

I would never approach a coach advising his team to quit. I've had a coach come to me and ask me how to end the game when they were getting beat 20+ or better in the 3rd inning. I then got the other coach involved in the discussion and both teams agreed to end the game.

This brought to mind a middle school game I was calling as PU last year. After one inning, the visiting team was up 14-0, the home team out on three successive strikeouts. After two out in the top of the second, the score was 19-0. The home coach asked for a conference with me and the visiting coach. The home coach told the visiting coach basically, it's 19-0, have all your players batted? If so, I'd like you to just let all my players bat and let's go home. They agreed; the players switched sides with the visitor's third string pitcher taking the mound. She was obviously trying not to blow the ball by the batters, but she still struck out the team (yep, team, all 9 batters).

I'm not sure of the document's official name, but there is a document that comes out every year that lists the State-Association rules that the MHSAA has chosen to adopt.

I believe, however, it's up to conferenced to adopt these rules, including the 15 run margin at any time rule.

I am glad we have the State Adoption that at any time if both coaches agree the game can be called by mercy rule. We only officially have the 10 after 5 rule set in stone with a number of runs by this inning format but the "both coaches agreement" rule comes in handy from time to time. With that said, I also dont think it is in the best interest of anyone for the umpire to initiate that conversation and I only bring it up if the team behind asks me if there are any options.